NYCDOT proposes changes to 4th, 6th, 7th avenues

Jamzer wrote: I don't think the point of reducing the number of lanes on 4th Ave is traffic calming or to turn it into something that looks like a residential side street.

I wasn't envisioning a residential street but was thinking Park Avenue in Manhattan. So one parking lane, three (reduced to two) traffic lanes, extra wide medians with landscaping, etc. That, might be worthwhile closer to AY, but seems unwaranted and counterproductive for the entire length of 4th Avenue.

linusvanpelt wrote: You may not like it, but 4th Avenue is changing from "commercial, industrial and light manufacturing space" and it makes perfect sense that the avenue be altered accordingly.

So where should commercial traffic go? You can alter the avenue to make it more pedestrial friendly but truck traffic needs to go somewhere. Not having a street that is comercial-traffic friendly actually means that you'll get more commercial traffic on the "residential" avenues especially if they become one-way streets.

homeowner wrote: [quote=linusvanpelt]You may not like it, but 4th Avenue is changing from "commercial, industrial and light manufacturing space" and it makes perfect sense that the avenue be altered accordingly.

So where should commercial traffic go? You can alter the avenue to make it more pedestrial friendly but truck traffic needs to go somewhere. Not having a street that is comercial-traffic friendly actually means that you'll get more commercial traffic on the "residential" avenues especially if they become one-way streets.

Well, it looks like part of the plan is to divert some of that commercial traffic onto the higher-up avenues. Which is not ideal to me, either, but may be a necessary outgrowth of adding more population to the neighborhood.

Fourth Avenue was upzoned for residential building with the full knowledge of the neighborhood, and the support of much of the neighborhood that was up-slope from 4th. People who lived closer to the park didn't have a problem with that when the zoning when it meant that the big uildings would be built on someone else's block and the profile of their low-rise brownstone blocks would be preserved.

But there's a price for that, which is that 4th Ave will now be populated by a bunch of people, whose safety and convenience is as important as that of people who live on 8th Avenue. As more and more people use the R stations on Fourth and cross at rush hour -- you can see it today -- the situation on those traffic islands gets more precarious and dangerous.

Bottom line is someone's ox has to get gored to some extent, but if the choice is between the convenience of drivers and the safety of pedestrians, to me pedestrians should always take priority. And I don't think the proper solution is to say that pedestrians on one avenue (4th) should be kept much less safe so pedestrians on another (6th or 7th) can remain safer.

FurryGreyBOy wrote: My first thought when I read this wasn't as either a pedestrian or a driver - but as a New York runner....

I know it's only 1 day a year, but the NYC Marathon covers about 6 miles on 4th Avenue, and is incredibly crowded as 38,000+ runners begin their journey and gradually spread out, before being channeled into narrower streets.

NYC is already known as a tough marathon because of the crowded, somewhat hilly course. Narrowing 4th Avenue would definitely make it a tougher, slower slog than it already is. Since the Marathon is such a huge money-spinner for New York, I would imagine New York Road Runners (amongst others) would be keen to have their say in prospective changes....

You are kidding yourself if you really believe any of this.

No one cares about the NY marathon and the financial benefits the city gains are irrelevant compared to property taxes and the real jobs in this city.

Oh, and btw, all these changes are to accomodate the many works NYC business needs. The population of this city is growing, didn't you know?

I just got this message in an email this morning....

Important meeting on March 15th: 6:30pm At New York Methodist Hospital

NYC Dept. of Transportation is proposing dangerous traffic-flow
changes that will have a severe impact on Park Slope. They include
making 7th Avenue a one-way southbound street and making 6th Avenue a
one-way northbound street, with the increased speeds and potential for
more serious accidents that those changes imply. If you care about
your own and your children's safety, as well as the residential
quality of our neighborhood, you must show up on March 15th to let DOT
know how unacceptable their proposals are. Come to New York Methodist
Hospital Auditorium, 506 6th Street (7th/8th Avenues). For more info
and links to other sites, check the Civic Council Website
(parkslopeciviccouncil.org), or contact the Civic Council at
[email protected]. You may also wish to check Brooklyn
Community Board 6 (brooklyncb6.org) or StreetsBlog (streetsblog.org).

Numbers are critical. Your presence is urgently needed!

Extracts from the agenda for the March 15th meeting appear below:-

1) Presentation and discussion of a proposal by the Department of
Transportation to convert 7th Avenue (between Flatbush Avenue and
Prospect Avenue) from a two-way street to a one-way southbound street
and 6th Avenue (between Atlantic Avenue and 23rd Street) from a two-
way street to a one-way northbound street.

2) Presentation and discussion of a proposal by the Department of
Transportation to eliminate one northbound and one southbound travel
lane from 4th Avenue (between Dean Street and Prospect Avenue) and
replace them with improved left-turn turning lanes.

Richard White
Park Slope Civic Council

... that is, if the proposed plan includes not only restructuring 4th ave but also making 6th and 7th one-way double-lane streets.

Absolutely it is as important! Nobody's kids should ever get squished.

what happens to the bus service on 7th ave? Now we have to walk an ave just to get the bus The only reason i took the bus in the first place is because it stops right in front of my apartment. Now i'm better off taking the R train.

linusvanpelt wrote: But there's a price for that, which is that 4th Ave will now be populated by a bunch of people, whose safety and convenience is as important as that of people who live on 8th Avenue.

I guess the safety and convenience of the folks who live past Prospect Ave of 4th ave isn't as important.

Oiseau wrote: [quote=linusvanpelt]But there's a price for that, which is that 4th Ave will now be populated by a bunch of people, whose safety and convenience is as important as that of people who live on 8th Avenue.

I guess the safety and convenience of the folks who live past Prospect Ave of 4th ave isn't as important.

Hey, I'm all for extending the changes south of Prospect too. You with me?

willregistersoon wrote: I say leave the traffic alone and just plant lots of trees on the 4th ave median and sidewalks if possible. I still don't understand why they can't make it more like Eastern or Ocean Parkways? Leave the number of lanes, make the left turns slightly longer, maybe put some left turn signals on some streets, and plant lots of trees. Hell, take away a little bit of sidewalk space and even throw in a bike path.

Agreed, with one addition: add protected bike lanes that are separated (visually and/ or physically) from the street traffic per the photos above.

Whether you support AY or not, the traffic and commuting will change and people aren't giving up their cars any time soon unfortunately. Make 4th avenue "look" nicer but you'd better leave it's width alone.

I am more worried about the subway service to/from Atlantic terminal when AY is built. The service is already 3rd world-like in its operation when it...rains....Because as we all know, neither NASA nor MTA can operate when it rains. ( BTW: where are the AY residents going to send their kids to school anyway??)

http://www.columbiajournalist.org/rw1_shapiro/2005/article.asp?subj=city&course=rw1_shapiro&id=1212

Development
Atlantic Yards and the subway: a disaster in the making?

By Samuel Goldsmith

No one knows exactly what Atlantic Yards and its surroundings will be like if and when the project gets built. The design could change, the size could fluctuate, and the level of the impact on life in Brooklyn is still open for debate.

At best, Atlantic Yards is an architectural masterpiece where beauty will replace blight, and low and high-income people will live together, basking in the pride of professional sports in Brooklyn.

At worst, however, Atlantic Yards is a corrupt deal to create a highly profitable disaster in an untouched Brooklyn oasis. The inappropriate design will destroy the neighborhood, and promises of affordable housing and community benefits are empty lures.

The facts don’t change: Atlantic Yards is a $4.2 billion project that would put roughly 6,000 units of housing, an 18,000 seat basketball arena, a hotel, and commercial space on 22-acres of downtown Brooklyn. But interpretations vary.

Consider just one component: the subway. Ten subway lines and the Long Island Railroad stop across the street from the Atlantic Yards site. The Atlantic Avenue station is the third largest transit hub in the MTA system. Bruce Ratner, the developer behind Atlantic Yards, says this makes the ideal location for his project, with easy access for the thousands anticipated visitors and residents.

But there is another interpretation.

Two transit watchdog groups, the Tri-State Transportation Campaign and the Straphangers Campaign, say the additional Atlantic Yards ridership will cripple the station, perhaps to the point of incapacitation.

Subway conductor Tina Sykes, for one, believes Ratner’s interpretation. She drives the A train, which stops at Hoyt and Schermerhorn streets, about a five-minute walk away from Atlantic Yards. She knows the station at Atlantic and Flatbush avenues well. When her shift ends in the early afternoon, she often strolls and shops at Atlantic Terminal, the mall above the Atlantic Avenue station. That’s where she catches the 3 train home to the Bronx in the afternoons.

Not long ago, Sykes sat outside the mall smoking a cigarette and gazing across the street at what she hopes is her future home. “When Atlantic Yards is done,” she said, “I want to move in.”

Sykes has lived in the Bronx for years, but she grew up in Brooklyn. She moved to the Bronx with her husband when they married; now they’re divorced. She wants to move back to Brooklyn, and hopes the low-income housing at Atlantic Yards will be an option. She’s sure a lot of people will want those dwellings, “but God willing, I’ll get in,” she said. “Brooklyn is exploding with people.”

Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers Campaign sees the same explosion. He just regards its impact differently.

Ridership at the Atlantic Avenue station grew by 26 percent from 2003 to 2005. If that pace continues, up to 10,500 additional riders will use the station everyday when Atlantic Yards is finished in 2016.

Russianoff is in favor of large development around transit hubs, but with a project of this size, he said, the subway won’t support the demand. “The developer made a huge error and used out of date standards when he determined this station would handle Atlantic Yards,” Russianoff said.

His colleague, Kate Slevin of the Tri-State Transportation Campaign, said crowds of people before and after basketball games at Atlantic Yards would clog the station and trains completely. “The scale of this project combined with other nearby development would overwhelm Brooklyn’s transportation system,” said Slevin.

But the state agency charged with reviewing Atlantic Yards -- and ultimately approving or denying the project – does not anticipate problems. The Empire State Development Corporation assessed the subways at Atlantic Avenue and reported no evidence of “significant adverse impacts” to the lines.

For her part, Sykes, who knows how crowded the 3 train can be, believes the MTA will make it work. She trusts Ratner and the state will build Atlantic Yards carefully, and mitigate potential problems before they happen. Slevin, on the other hand, sees it differently.

“If Atlantic Yards goes up, the MTA could offer more service, but that requires more money, and the MTA is already short changed,” said Slevin. “There has to be more train cars, but they say they don’t have enough money to buy them. The question is, who’s going to actually implement the changes?”

She may have reason for concern.

Ratner does include a new subway entrance in the Atlantic Yards design. But the MTA has no plans to change service at Atlantic Avenue--with or without Atlantic Yards, according to MTA spokesman Tim O’Brian. Parts of the station were remodeled in 2004, so no new improvements are expected in the near future, he said. More trains could be added after basketball games, like the baseball special at Yankee Stadium, because there is a surplus of cars after rush hour. But before games and during rush hour, “practically everything is out there on the tracks,” said O’Brian.

He would not say whether he agrees with Slevin’s interpretation of the subway and Atlantic Yards, or conversely with Sykes’.
Meanwhile, Tina Sykes seeks confirmation of her views on her own. As she gathered her shopping bags and prepared for her commute home, she spotted an MTA colleague near the stairs.
“Hey Therese, you think the trains will get overcrowded with that new stadium and housing?,” said Sykes.

Her colleague shrugged. “Maybe. But what ya gonna do?”

Interestingly,

At the same time several palces/ offices I know are moving from manhattan to brooklyn to save on rent...maybe I'll be riding my bike to work....

This is to attend the meeting to strategize BEFORE next week's meeting on the 15th. From what she says it appears a strong community voice might make the DOT back down.
Please spread the word for both meetings.

WHEN: Friday, March 9 at 5:30 p.m.

WHERE: at New York Methodist Hospital in theExecutive Dining Room, which is where the Civic Council's board meetings are normally held. It's between the cafeteria and gift shop in the main entrance off the driveway on 6th Street.

Subject: Only if they put in real bike lanes

I am not opposed if they put in some real nice bike paths on both streets.