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i saw a weird/creepy thing on the F last night--did you? — Brooklynian

i saw a weird/creepy thing on the F last night--did you?

brooklynpotter
brooklynpotter
edited November -1 in Park Slope
around 11, was coming back from dinner. at some point during the trip two people came on together: an older (late 70s) unshaven orthodox man wearing a hat and carrying a rolly suitcase, and an early 20s blond girl, with a giant red rolly suitcase bound in shrink-wrap. girl looked very nordic, long hair up in a scrunchie, miniscule diamond earrings and nose ring, jeans, pink nylon carry-on looking bag.

at first they were in seat across from the other, so i couldn't tell that they were together. but when a seat opened up next to the man he motioned for her to come sit next to him. then, he kept leaning in to talk with her and it appeared he was explaining something. i could have just been reading into that. she didn't seem to have any emotion whatsoever

when the train went up the viaduct he used his razor phone twice, telling someone he was on his way but late, he might have said he was coming from san francisco. then the train went express and when i got off at 7th ave they stayed on the train.

i really regret not going up to her and pulling her aside and asking if she was okay, but i didn't. (why she wouldn't have been okay, for those who might not know: orthodox men aren't supposed to be talking to women who aren't relatives, esp. women in pants, or traveling with women in pants--she was clearly a foreigner. he shouldn't have been leaning in talking with her, totally inappropriate for him to be that close to her, etc. ) the whole thing was so out of the realm of normalcy. i really hope she wasn't being trafficked. no, i'm not kidding.
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Comments

  • metalnyc
    metalnyc
    not saying she was, but hasidic men are arrested A LOT for engaing the women of the night.
  • brooklynpotter
    brooklynpotter
    i know, it's true. but they'd never been seen with one on the F train. and this girl looked more like a student. at first i thought "au pair", but there is now way this girl would be brought into a kosher/orthodox home for that reason.
  • underhill_mt
    underhill_mt
    I'd be quick to say it was likely the hooker route, but the suitcases throw me off a bit. Not sure why she'd have a suitcase... but maybe it's an innocent situation (although I don't see how because that girl would not be welcome in an Ortho home as you said).
  • jeffrey
    jeffrey
    What if it was his granddaughter? (you know, the one that moved away to SF and joined a band?)
  • brooklynpotter
    brooklynpotter
    i'd hazard a guess that this woman was in no way jewish. at all. nada
  • longtimesloper
    longtimesloper
    I am half Jewish (the wrong half-LOL) and used to work for a very religious orthodox run company.

    And, yes, the men who worked there dressed the way you describe this man dressed as and there were plenty of women working in this office, most of us like me, not religious or Jewish and wore pants and the men in the office spoke to us and walked with us, etc. They wouldn't touch us or shake hands with us-but, there was no religious ruling about them talking to us or working with us!

    Anyway, just saying all of this because it all could have been perfectly innocent-maybe the girl was going to be working for this man. Or, just because she didn't look Jewish, didn't mean, she wasn't. There are blonde Jews out there in the world ;).
  • brooklynpotter
    brooklynpotter
    LongTimeSloper wrote:

    Anyway, just saying all of this because it all could have been perfectly innocent-maybe the girl was going to be working for this man. Or, just because she didn't look Jewish, didn't mean, she wasn't. There are blonde Jews out there in the world ;).
    my cousins are blond jews, i've known plenty. the girl was nordic, trust me.

    she might have been going to work for the man, but i think that relationship would have been more professional. of course he can talk with her, but he wouldn't ask her to come sit next to him and lean in for talking. trust me, i know the orthodox. this crossed the lines (not too much, but it did. and in public no less). something was awry in some regard. i somehow doubt the short scraggly man has a tall nordic daughter with a pierced nose and blue jeans. were it something legit, i believe his wife/daughter/aunt/sister, etc., would have been along.
  • longtimesloper
    longtimesloper
    OK-just saying!
  • brooklynpotter
    brooklynpotter
    no, i know. i went through all the scenarios in my head. but i know the orthodox community out here pretty well, and i couldn't think of anything
  • mpmav1
    mpmav1
    Now I'm pissed... it was a great read but I want to know the end of the story :). Oh well... maybe you'll see her again. If you do, you must promise to find out more!
  • brooklynpotter
    brooklynpotter
    i knew i should have kidnapped her!
  • jamzer
    jamzer
    brooklynpotter wrote: i'd hazard a guess that this woman was in no way jewish. at all. nada
    You really can't be that certain. I know a Chinese Jew. Go figure. Judaism is a religion, not a monolithic race. Jews come from all races, just like Catholics, Buddists, Athiets, etc. Think Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung. What is the key differnce, you can change your religion, but you can't change your race.

    If she had body piercings or tattos, that would probably mean she was not Jewish (meaning a person who practices the Jewish faith as opposed to a person who likes bagels and lox or a person who likes to hang out with hasidic men) since Judiasm generally forbids such things.
  • brooklynpotter
    brooklynpotter
    Jamzer wrote:
    If she had body piercings or tattos, that would probably mean she was not Jewish (meaning a person who practices the Jewish faith as opposed to a person who likes bagels and lox or a person who likes to hang out with hasidic men) since Judiasm generally forbids such things.
    that's actually a falsehood. you can have tattoos or piercings.

    and i know that jews can look like anyone, but we're talking an orthodox man hanging with a non-modest women in pants and talking closely. that in itself is a red flag. the rest is just icing.

    i know a great deal about the orthodox and hasidic community, re: their laws, customs, etc. esp about the relationships between men and women. this one has no definition
  • longtimesloper
    longtimesloper
    Since when can Jews have tattoos? That is a new one on me!

    My Jewish, keep kosher, going to temple mother in law nearly had a stroke when hubby got his tats. All she could yell was "Now you can't be buried in a Jewish cemetery!"
  • redmenace
    redmenace
    LongTimeSloper wrote: Since when can Jews have tattoos? That is a new one on me!

    My Jewish, keep kosher, going to temple mother in law nearly had a stroke when hubby got his tats. All she could yell was "Now you can't be buried in a Jewish cemetery!"
    I agree. I was just about disowned by my (non-practicing) jewish family after I came home with pierced ears. The tattoos had my grandmother not speaking to me.

    And I didn't know that orthodox men weren't supposed to talk to women. I have been initiated into conversation by orthodox men on many occasions.
  • brooklynpotter
    brooklynpotter
    there are many views on this:

    http://www.hillel.org/about/news/2007/jan/tattoos_19Jan07.htm

    http://www.hillel.org/about/news/2007/jan/tattooed_22Jan2007.htm

    http://www.myjewishlearning.com/daily_life/TheBody/Adorning_the_Body/Tattoo.htm

    http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/275/Q4/
  • jamzer
    jamzer
    brooklynpotter wrote: [quote=Jamzer]
    If she had body piercings or tattos, that would probably mean she was not Jewish (meaning a person who practices the Jewish faith as opposed to a person who likes bagels and lox or a person who likes to hang out with hasidic men) since Judiasm generally forbids such things.
    that's actually a falsehood. you can have tattoos or piercings.

    and i know that jews can look like anyone, but we're talking an orthodox man hanging with a non-modest women in pants and talking closely. that in itself is a red flag. the rest is just icing.

    i know a great deal about the orthodox and hasidic community, re: their laws, customs, etc. esp about the relationships between men and women. this one has no definition

    Read what I write before you jump down my throat. I said probably, not absolutely certainly. The idea that Jews can have tattos is kind of a fringe belief, not mainstream.
  • sjknoll
    sjknoll
    Thanks for the links, it was very interesting to read. I wonder if a lot of the guilt jews get over tattoos is because of the association with tattoos and the holocaust. As for piercings, I had never heard that they were forbidden, but then again I'm sure there are many Jewish laws I'm not aware of.

    However, an Orthodox man sitting close and whispering to a women who is not his wife or child (I'm not saying immediate family, because my sister in laws brother is orthodox, I don't believe they touch) is a big no no. And even if it was an Orthodox man and his wife, they still wouldn't touch in public.

    But it is quite suspicious. . .
  • redmenace
    redmenace
    so what are we to do with this information?
  • jamzer
    jamzer
    sjknoll wrote: Thanks for the links, it was very interesting to read. I wonder if a lot of the guilt jews get over tattoos is because of the association with tattoos and the holocaust. As for piercings, I had never heard that they were forbidden, but then again I'm sure there are many Jewish laws I'm not aware of.

    However, an Orthodox man sitting close and whispering to a women who is not his wife or child (I'm not saying immediate family, because my sister in laws brother is orthodox, I don't believe they touch) is a big no no. And even if it was an Orthodox man and his wife, they still wouldn't touch in public.

    But it is quite suspicious. . .
    The prohibition goes back way before the holocaust. There was a general rabbinical dispensation granted after the holocaust since the “tattoos” given by the Nazis was not a free choice of the victim. It has more to do with the purity of the body. Jews are also not supposed to be embalmed either.

    Many of us Jews heard our mother's screams when we threatened to get a tatto. It was verboten in my Jewish community growing up.
  • jamzer
    jamzer
    redmenace wrote: so what are we to do with this information?
    Hunt down the Hassidic man with the nordic, non-jewish, hooker girlfriend with tattos and body piercings who was about to convert to Judiasm whom he was abusing or selling into slavery and report him to the authorities.

    RIGHT NOW!
  • redmenace
    redmenace
    Jamzer wrote: [quote=redmenace]so what are we to do with this information?
    Hunt down the Hassidic man with the nordic, non-jewish, hooker girlfriend with tattos and body piercings who was about to convert to Judiasm whom he was abusing or selling into slavery and report him to the authorities.

    RIGHT NOW!

    last time someone tried to do that, it was in Carroll Park, and involved a female child and, what turned out to be a male family member. The man's picture was posted on many local boards and labeled as a sex offender. It was ugly and embarrassing. And wrong.
  • sjknoll
    sjknoll
    Jamzer wrote:
    The prohibition goes back way before the holocaust. There was a general rabbinical dispensation granted after the holocaust since the “tattoos” given by the Nazis was not a free choice of the victim. It has more to do with the purity of the body. Jews are also not supposed to be embalmed either.
    Right, that I knew, but I was sort of generalizing as to that could be a reason why some mothers yell and are outraged, especially if they are not as educated with the Talmud.
  • longtimesloper
    longtimesloper
    It has to do with the body going back to God in the same condition that God made it in-that is why you aren't supposed to get tattoos.

    And, redmenace, chill out, I am pretty sure Jamzer was joking about hunting the guy down.
  • brookfetish
    brookfetish
    Kosherdave...where are you?
  • ninemonthsout
    ninemonthsout
    redmenace wrote: so what are we to do with this information?
    Throw out imaginary scenarios to explain the odd couple. I'll go first:

    He wasn't Jewish or elderly. They are a young married couple (originally from Ohio) who were in disguise to look unsuspecting so that they can steal luggage from the airport. They don't sell their loot, they simply do it for the thrill. They get off on the idea that someone is still waiting at baggage claim C for their big red suitcase. It's become a weekly ritual for them- they use the clothes they steal as their disguise for the next week. He leaned in to say "Stay cool, baby. Someone's staring at us..."
  • arlette
    arlette
    Sorry to say....orthodox...ultra orthodox jews are not following the so called rules. They drive vehicles they arent supposed to, listen to hip hop, watch television, watch porn,solicit prostitutes, smoke weed,snort cocaine, embezzle and do just about everything else anybody does including molesting kids. So I say he was sneaking her home.
  • brooklynpotter
    brooklynpotter
    you don't sneak someone home on the subway. and a TALL blond nordic woman is hard to hide. yes, they do all the things you mentioned, just not out in the open--trust me, i'm a secular non-practicing atheist with no glossy visions of what the super-frum are supposed to be like. i've done enough reading and research and outreach to know there are all kinds of things in this community. but the ONE thing that is one of the biggest things is being modest. APPEARING modest. (modest meaning dressing by covering your body, not touching, etc. a different definition of what we call modest.)

    what should we do with the info? don't know. was hoping there were other people who saw it or something.
  • whatchuwant
    whatchuwant
    This reminds me of a bar I used to sing at in Crown Heights/Bed Stuy. For a while a Hasidic guy used to come to see me sing, he sat at the bar and drank, and would occasionally talk to me. He was nice, he just liked to let his hair down, get out of the house, away from the wife and kids, and NO ONE from his community would ever spot him there.
  • redmenace
    redmenace
    brooklynpotter wrote: you don't sneak someone home on the subway. and a TALL blond nordic woman is hard to hide. yes, they do all the things you mentioned, just not out in the open--trust me, i'm a secular non-practicing atheist with no glossy visions of what the super-frum are supposed to be like. i've done enough reading and research and outreach to know there are all kinds of things in this community. but the ONE thing that is one of the biggest things is being modest. APPEARING modest. (modest meaning dressing by covering your body, not touching, etc. a different definition of what we call modest.)

    what should we do with the info? don't know. was hoping there were other people who saw it or something.
    Let me rephrase: what exactly is it you are implying, or afraid that is happening? This is NY after all. All kinds of people tend to speak to all kinds of people.

    I've lived here my whole life, and nothing really surprises me anymore. If there was no violence involved, what is the issue?
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