Residential Parking Permits being discussed again.
Comments
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I'd like a stat that says what % of tolls actually go to the roads, as opposed to the mbta.
...how much is absorbed by the mbta to collect the tolls and supervise the contractors?
layers of bureaucracy.
(not as good as the NYS lottery racket, but a good racket nonetheless)
P.S. to make it easy, NYT ran a very related article to my jabberings. Here's the dreams of the anti-car planners:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/nyregion/20streets.html?_r=1
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/nyregion/20closings.html?ref=nyregion -
MeredithB wrote: [quote=vidro3]
I got to give you credit, Vidro3, you are good at seeing data the way you want to."My report, Subsidies for Traffic http://www.komanoff.net/cars_II/Subsidies_for_Traffic.pdf (PDF)
[quote=1139
First off, that Komanoff paper is from 1991. IMO, If Mr. Komanoff writes for Streetblog he is automatically anti-car.
Secondly, I do not see where it says that the (supposed) NY or NJ pattern (from 1991) of taxpayers subsidizing motorists holds true across the entire United States?
Maybe I missed it, I just browsed through it.
The other statement was from a different paper. here is a link to his work http://www.its.ucdavis.edu/people/faculty/delucchi/index.php
I don't know from which, specifically, that quote came.
Also look at some of Bruce Schaller's papers http://www.schallerconsult.com/pub/index.html
Show me data that says the opposite, if you think the data I quote is ideologically biased. -
whynot_31 wrote: I'd like a stat that says what % of tolls actually go to the roads, as opposed to the mbta.
This says that this year $60M of MTA tolls have gone to support mass transit.
...how much is absorbed by the mbta to collect the tolls and supervise the contractors?
layers of bureaucracy.
(not as good as the NYS lottery racket, but a good racket nonetheless)
P.S. to make it easy, NYT ran a very related article to my jabberings. Here's the dreams of the anti-car planners:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/nyregion/20streets.html?_r=1
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/nyregion/20closings.html?ref=nyregion -
I say just toll the bridges, raise teh gas tax if needed, but as for parking permits, forget it.
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right, 60M of how many million?
what's the overhead for the admin? -
whynot_31 wrote: right, 60M of how many million?
oh, forgot the link.
what's the overhead for the admin?
http://mta.info/mta/ind-finance/month/bt-financial.htm
and its $50M not $60.
Figuring out admin costs is more time consuming. All the info is on mta.info though.
From what I have read though the overhead and management costs of the MTA are pretty reasonable considering its size. -
I think parking permits are a fantastic idea. Why do people with cars get free space on the street to store them when people without cars get nada? Free parking is a scourge of America and thinking of permits as a Tax is silly. We're just finally waking up to the fact that we've been subsidizing parking for a small segment of the population with no benefit. The permits shouldn't be inexpensive either.
As for fears by businesses there is an easy solution to that as well, add more meters on the cross streets. if the first 2 spaces of every street that intersects with a commercial avenue pick up meters and take away longer term parking from those streets should free up plenty of spaces for shoppers.
I don't understand why people think they have some inherit right to park for free. -
Free parking is the scourge of America? Really?????????
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Yes, a huge amount of land is now reserved for on street or on property parking, the availability of parking is a direct factor in whether or not people drive cars. Cars, although convenient, are dangerous and a huge emitter of greenhouse gases, and one of the largest factors in our dependence on foreign oil, which last I checked is responsible for at least 2 major wars and countless other "military actions."
http://www.raisethehammer.org/index.asp?id=072 -
Sorry, I would not call free parking the scourge of America, I think there are a lot of other things that garner that title. BTW, parking isn't free, i do believe our tax dollars help pay for roads, streets, paving, etc. etc..
So, just for laughs, how much do you think parking permits should cost (by the way, I have absolutely no problem paying for a residential parking permit). -
Lets not even start to get into the number of cars that are just cruising for parking in the slope since there is so little available (http://gothamist.com/2007/02/27/does_park_slope.php according to this study by the city 45% of traffic in the slope is people looking for spaces.)
Charging enough for parking such that on average ~15% of spaces are unoccupied at any given time would reduce that % to near 0 and SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the traffic on all our streets. I have no idea how much it would have to cost to get to that number, my guess is that it would need to be close to the amount that a vacant lot charges for outdoor parking. -
Alternatively, buses should be banned from city streets, and subway tunnels should be converted to pedestrian malls for getting around in the rain or snow.
Why should we subsidize mass transit? Think how much electricity is burned to keep the subways running, and oil for buses!
Some people don't use subways or buses... why should they be taxed to subsidize other people's use of mass transit?
Think how much more pleasant biking would be without aggressive buses cutting riders off at every other corner, and spewing noxious exhaust everywhere they go.
Melanarchy, it's all a question of whose ox is being gored, and who gets to do the goring. You (presumably) don't have a car, so you want everyone who does to suffer.
You assume you are entitled to subways and buses. You are no more entitled to them than drivers are entitled to parking spaces. -
Booklaw I don't currently have a car because I found it way too much of a hassle to find parking. If I could buy a permit and cut down on that hassle I'd get a car again in a heartbeat.
If you're seriously comparing greenhouse emissions of personal vehicles as commuting options with that of busses and subways I have a bridge in florida that has a very attractive price right now you might want to look at pictures of.
I don't see entitlement to subways and busses I see them as greener more city friendly options then cars. So if we're working to achieve a balanced city then they're a better option then lots of cars. You are right though re: ox being gored. It's all an act. So over the top hyperbole is always appropriate. -
melanarchy wrote: Lets not even start to get into the number of cars that are just cruising for parking in the slope since there is so little available (http://gothamist.com/2007/02/27/does_park_slope.php according to this study by the city 45% of traffic in the slope is people looking for spaces.)
So, you are proposing that the city charge residents (ion top of the taxes they already pay that maintain roads and highways0 about $200 per month for a residential parking permit? LOL, umm, ok
Charging enough for parking such that on average ~15% of spaces are unoccupied at any given time would reduce that % to near 0 and SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the traffic on all our streets. I have no idea how much it would have to cost to get to that number, my guess is that it would need to be close to the amount that a vacant lot charges for outdoor parking. -
melanarchy wrote: Lets not even start to get into the number of cars that are just cruising for parking in the slope since there is so little available (http://gothamist.com/2007/02/27/does_park_slope.php according to this study by the city 45% of traffic in the slope is people looking for spaces.)
Never happen. Totally ridiculous. The city will take as much money from as many people as it can.
Charging enough for parking such that on average ~15% of spaces are unoccupied at any given time -
melanarchy wrote: Booklaw I don't currently have a car because I found it way too much of a hassle to find parking. If I could buy a permit and cut down on that hassle I'd get a car again in a heartbeat.
You could just get a garage space. -
booklaw wrote: Alternatively, buses should be banned from city streets, and subway tunnels should be converted to pedestrian malls for getting around in the rain or snow.
Holy moly. Do you really believe that any of this even approximates a logical argument or are you just trying to stir the pot?
Why should we subsidize mass transit? Think how much electricity is burned to keep the subways running, and oil for buses!
Some people don't use subways or buses... why should they be taxed to subsidize other people's use of mass transit?
Think how much more pleasant biking would be without aggressive buses cutting riders off at every other corner, and spewing noxious exhaust everywhere they go.
Melanarchy, it's all a question of who's ox is being gored, and who gets to do the goring. You (presumably) don't have a car, so you want everyone who does to suffer.
You assume you are entitled to subways and buses. You are no more entitled to them than drivers are entitled to parking spaces. -
I used to have a job on University Pl near E 12th St. I took the subway to work, it never accrued to me to drive. Around the corner on there was an old prescient house that was converted into an office for the Police Athletic League. The staff there had placards that allowed them to park in loading zones and bus stops along University Pl. Everyday the same cars would block the bus stops and cause trucks to double park to unload. Every day.
It was not like they were cops chasing robbers and they had to jump out of their cars like on TV. They are employees of the Police Athletic League. They are good guys, yes. But why do they get free parking (that causes a blockage, if not a hazzard.)
I contacted the local community board. They said they don't make enough money to park in the garage. They need free parking. Well neither did I, that is why I took the subway.
If I would have been guaranteed a free parking spot if front of my office, I would have bought a second car. That is why parking should not be free
Free parking is the scourge of America! Really! -
hey booklaw, my prior analogy was perfect: Ringrunner is part of the movement to restrict parking and cars.
The forces are uniting against cars... for better or worse. -
I understand that. I just wanted to point out that it's all a matter of societal choice (and thus of political power); there is no right or wrong here.
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...the anti-car people are gaining power.
Drivers are gonna get slaughtered by taxes and regulations. -
LongTimeSloper wrote: So, you are proposing that the city charge residents (ion top of the taxes they already pay that maintain roads and highways0 about $200 per month for a residential parking permit? LOL, umm, ok
But non-car owners are also paying the taxes to maintain roads, highways (and parking spots) that they don't use for personal travel (except maybe the occasional taxi ride or commercial delivery).
I hereby propose that the residential parking permits be charged at a rate equal to eight times the then current annual cost of membership to the Park Slope Parents listserve. That way, we can roll two fights into one!! -
but what if has a disparate effect on a certain population?
For example: dwarf, african american, lesbians, who are muslim.
You know the argument is going to come up that this population must use their car to get everywhere and therefore should be exempt from the new regulations and fees. ...and then every other population will argue that they should be exempt on some basis as well.
P.S. If you are dwarf, african american, lesbian, and muslim I mean no offense. I will even buy you a drink if you show up at the next brooklynian gathering. -
How 'bout we put me (a car owner) up against Whynot (a non-car owner)? Whomever wins is right.
PS - I will win. -
hey, I'm neutral in this. Like the anti-smoking culture war, I see this as a societal war that will be fun to watch from the sidelines.
P.S. Car owners will lose. Especially Ana. -
whynot_31 wrote: hey booklaw, my prior analogy was perfect: Ringrunner is part of the movement to restrict parking and cars.
Ringrunner owns a car and has no intention of getting rid of it, LOL! Though, he does run and bike a lot also. he is one of those weird folks who does it all~
The forces are uniting against cars... for better or worse.
As for the fact that even non car owners pay taxes for roads, yes, I understand that, i was just trying to point out to the other person that parking is NOt free. -
as something of an aside, Americans are such pussies when it comes to taxes. Worldwide the US is among the lowest in corporate and personal income taxes. NYS/C taxes might be higher than the rest of the country but overall, taxes are lower now than they have been at almost any other time during the lifespan of anyone on this board.
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[quote="LongTimeSloper"
Ringrunner owns a car and has no intention of getting rid of it, LOL! Though, he does run and bike a lot also. he is one of those weird folks who does it all~
I would drop my car in a New York minute, but my wife's reverse commute is 10 minutes by car and an hour and a half by mass transit at 5:30am. -
True
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The latest from The Brooklyn Paper
Why parking permits are not the answer
The Brooklyn Paper
There is no question that parking is a problem in residential neighborhoods around Downtown Brooklyn.
There have been many proposals for fixing the problem, but one idea keeps coming back: charging residents for permits that would allow holders the exclusive right to seek a parking space in their neighborhoods.
Mac Support Store
Boosters say that a small street-parking fee would free up spaces for residents. But it would not.
Support for permits is based on a belief that the root cause of the parking crunch is an influx of out-of-neighborhood residents who drive from further-flung portions of the borough to Park Slope or Carroll Gardens, and then take the subway into the city from there.
But this simplistic assessment misses larger truths about parking — and runs the risk of driving public policy towards a simplistic response. Here’s why:
• The number of “outer-Brooklyn” drivers who “half-commute” by car and then finish with a short subway ride is not what is tipping the essential balance here. Studies have repeatedly shown that neighborhood car-owners alone would still not have enough spaces for their cars even if other drivers weren’t even in the mix.
• Residential parking permits, which typically cost $100 per year in other cities, do not reflect the market value of the parking spaces themselves.
Only a true market system would create enough revenue to make a parking permit system actually worthwhile while also serving the larger public policy goal: discouraging residents of Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope, Carroll Gardens and Fort Greene — neighborhoods with the best subway service in Brooklyn — from owning cars in the first place.
If people in those neighborhoods still choose to own a car, they should stop complaining about limited parking.
• There will always be flaws that render such a system useless. Cops, fire fighters, city officials and others have access to placards that allow them to park anywhere with virtual impunity. And drivers who show no compunction about registering their cars out of state to reap insurance or tax benefits would certainly lie about their address to secure a parking permit.
• Owning a car means assuming the responsibility for that vehicle. The city is under no obligation to ensure a parking space — an entitlement with a market value in the thousands of dollars — for a resident who insists on owning a car.
With so many flaws, it’s hard to see how residential parking permits solves the problem.
Updated 04:05 pm, May, 21 2009: Think parking permits are the answer? Think again.
©2009 The Brooklyn Paper
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