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Getting spat at because of who i am — Brooklynian

Getting spat at because of who i am

benny_b
benny_b
edited November -1 in Crown Heights/Prospect Lefferts Gardens
I'm having this big problem and need some anonymous, community advice.

I live on Franklin avenue between dean and st. marks and don't have many friends in the area, I'm a white guy, 24, who's very dedicated to Brooklyn and moved to the neighborhood 6 months ago, and I have this problem with black people spitting at me in what seems like a pandemic racist thing.

It's something I've been noticing for the whole 6 months -- black people spitting just as they walk past me, or just a few steps in front of me.

I've spent most of this time convincing myself that I'm just imagining a connection and it's a coincidence of people happening to spit at the same time I'm there, but I no longer can believe that. For one thing, a lot of these spitters look at me right before or right after, or just have a dirty look on their face at the time. There have been some recent examples, 1 was when I was walking down Washington Avenue I think towards Eastern Parkway and a homeless guy sitting in front of a building saw me, clearly hocked up and spat at the exact moment I passed. Yesterday, on Flushing avenue (not in crown heights obviously) I was walking and some chubby black girl in her 20s was walking towards me, I wasn't looking at her but she looked straight at me and spat exactly as we passed, which was disgusting offensive and left me shaken with anger. Then this morning, just as I was walking out of my building to go to work, my morning was ruined when some guy I was passing in the street looked at me and then spat.

All these people have been pretty ghetto looking and i try to ignore these racist morons, I know that they're underprivileged and have had horrible lives. And I'm not blaming black people in my neighborhood as a whole at all; after I pass a spitter I'll walk right by five smiling families of good folk who have no problem with me. but there seems to be a dedicated group of spitters, i can practically rely on it happening every time i go out.

My feeling is that some black muslims in this area are spitting at me because I'm jewish, visibly so, and because they're racist POSs. that's the only thing that makes sense to me, the idea of black people spitting at me just because I'm white seems less likely.

anyways, now its become a paranoia I can't shake and may be imagining -- in my 3rd example above, the 3rd spitter might have not even noticed me and it might be my imagination, but I don't know anymore b/c it's so frequent.

it's starting to make me really hate the area. i've been frequenting Franklin avenue for over four years, my sister used to rent on Franklin and Park Place, and I don't know if the area has gotten a lot worse lately or it's just being at Franklin and Dean instead. I'm definitely not some nose-up-in-the-air hipster, I'm just minding my own business and renting this place while working b/c I can't afford anything else. I used to live in Bushwick, which I thought would be more ghetto than Franklin Ave, but it was actually better because I didn't deal with this crap.

Sorry this is so long, I just need to hear some other people's opinions. to what degree am I just paranoid of being hated by the poor black people whose community I've transplanted to, or if these black people really think its okay to spit at people. I've heard about crown heights antisemitism but I didn't expect to have to deal with it like this on a near-daily basis. is this the cost of living here?
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Comments

  • the invisible lines
    the invisible lines
    I live on Classon and am frequently on Franklin. I'm a 27-year-old white male. I've lived in Crown Heights since 2006 and have been spit at/on several hundred times since then, so you are not alone (my most memorable incident being a big phlegmy one that landed very near me, only to be followed by an empty Snapple bottle being thrown at my head that painfully found its target).

    On one hand this sort of "insult" is demoralizing and should be questioned. On the other, your safety is more important than your desire to express your anger. Some guy spit on the bottom of my pants when I was walking on Franklin last summer, and it really just pissed me off. I said, "What the fuck, man?" and he told me to "Shut the fuck up unless you want to die." I obviously took his advice. So if you want to speak up, be careful. Maybe try to meet them with kindness, as difficult that may be.

    I know that people may reply to this thread and harp on you for coming off as targeting blacks, which you are for the purpose of detailing your specific experiences. This isn't a "black" thing - it's a hate thing. It's a disgusting asshole thing meant to make you feel unwelcome and despised. Yes, you did note that for every one person who does this, there are many more that are kind and welcoming to you. Just try to keep perspective (since I'm sure this will continue) and remember that most of us live here in happy harmony and the cultural and racial mix in CH gives it the life that makes most of us love it. Don't let hate for you translate into hate for any group based on what gross fuckers do to you because they hate who you were born as.

    Sorry for the long-ass speech.
  • whatchuwant
    whatchuwant
    Wow- not sure what to tell you- I've never heard of this as a thing, in general. But then, if you think its because your Jewish (do you wear a yarmulke?), then I really don't know what to say (I'm white, but not Jewish). Most of the Jewish folk tend to stay in one area, farther down the Parkway, so maybe they think your "invading on their turf"??? There's been many a conflict in the CH area between the Jewish and African-American communities, as you probably may know, that continues to this day.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    This 40ish, white guy of Irish roots encourages you not to attribute such acts as being directed at you as the result of being Jewish.

    That said, I've always interpreted it as the modern equivalent of of blowing cigarette smoke in a person's face, something along the lines of "yea, I was rude to you, you gonna do something about it?" (at 24, do you remember smoking in bars?)

    ...I also think people with lousy dental hygeine tend to spit a lot, but those who are simply gross are pretty easy to seperate from "racist and gross". As Invisible lines points out, there's usually more eye contact involved, and its personal.

    ...I also think the characters in question tend to hate EVERYONE, so there's a good chance they try to get a rise out of people regardless of their race (think of the prick on the subway who won't move out of the door way to let people on or off ...You know the ones? They are usually not selective, they just want to show their fellow riders that they are big guys and assholes. ...If these folks aren't the spitters in question, perhaps they are related in someway.)

    Welcome to the neighborhood.

    Such folks tend not to move around a lot (physically or economically), so they can often be avoided next time by crossing the street....

    P.S. I was writing my post as Invisible Lines was posting his, so a lot of my advice is similar. Suffice it to say, there have always been assholes. Avoid them when possible. ...you don't lose any "face or respect" from those who have brains when you do so.

    Do you get spit at more often that Invisiblle Lines or myself because you are Jewish? I don't know. I just know that you aren't the only one who gets it, and you should try not to let it ruin your morning.
  • ericheights
    ericheights
    Benny,

    I don't know if you're a native of the metro area but I have to admit my first though was "Welcome to NY". I have to agree with Why_not, it's not a race thing it's a "I'm the big dog" mentality for generally insecure human beings. I'd also also wager that homeless people are pretty pissed off in general (After calling 911 for a ODing homeless guy on classon he preceded to call me a cracker, which really I just found amusing) and that young kids spitting/fighting/yelling is just an act of being a dumb ass kid in need of attention and group behavior. Anyway, I've lived and worked in this neighborhood for the last three and change years and I've found the most effective thing to do is make a kind and honest effort, when given the opportunity, to let the adults in the neighborhood know you're here to stay as part of the community and ignore the rest of it because it aint worth the trouble.

    Which leads me back to my initial thought this is New York City and it's got a lot of assholes in it. Comes with the territory.
  • ntfool
    ntfool
    Wow. That sucks. My wife and I are both white, mid-late 30's, have lived in the neighborhood for about eight years (the last five of which right off Franklin) and can honestly say I've never been spit at. Have I been spit at and not noticed? Certainly possible. I don't know if you're experiencing an anti-white thing or an anti-Jewish thing, but I am sorry that you have to deal with it either way. As others have obviously posted, it is obviously meant to make you feel as unwelcome as possible.
  • cool the kid
    cool the kid
    Lol, I haven't posted in this thread yet. All I can say is, while it doesn't make it right, dude may have lived through and may still be harboring bad feelings from the riots. There's no easy answer to this- that kind of behavior just comes with the territory and will take years to disappear. Best bet, just avoid confrontation as much as possible and be alert.

    I don't know what it is but somehow I just imagine this summer not being a good one for Crown Heights. Maybe I'm just thinking that to justify my impending move
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    whoops, for some reason I thought that was CTK's avatar. Edited....
  • lexie z
    lexie z
    I don't even believe this guy.....
  • the invisible lines
    the invisible lines
    Lexie Z wrote: I don't even believe this guy.....
    What's your reasoning? This happens to me all the time. I'm not Jewish, but I'm a white male / 27 years old.
  • catwalkertexasranger
    catwalkertexasranger
    It's not because your Jewish. It's because your a young white male. If you don't want to get a low to medium level beat down from time to time you should move to Williamsburg. Spitting,slapping,dropping litter on your feet,and talking loudly using abusive and intimidating language is the equivalent of a wedgie,swirly,noogie in this neighborhood. Lots of these kids have been raised with little to no boundaries. Also don't read your Kindle on the train at 3am when the car is filled with guys that smell like hydro after they came from a prison release party for TI. Wake up and smell the cat food.Also putting a fake gun or knife in your skinny jeans may save a B slap or 2. Wearing a census worker ID may also gain you a free pass. Also young black males love to laugh and have a good time so maybe you can wear a pair of those Kanye sunglasses..that will make them smile
  • karl the druid
    karl the druid
    i've been told i don't look druish
  • ishtar
    ishtar
    Lexie Z wrote: I don't even believe this guy.....
    I'm a skeptic too, but I can totally see some of the folks on his stretch of Franklin doing some foolishness like that. I'm black and I find myself zig zagging across the street to avoid the folks who loiter on certain stoops and corners because of their behavior.

    The really sad thing is that you can replace this white mid 20s male with my mother when she was around that age. :neutral:
  • xlizellx
    xlizellx
    I have both lived ON Franklin and just off of Franklin for a few years now and have never had this occur. My husband has been living just off of Franklin with me for 2 years and also never had this happen. There is 1 stretch on Franklin (just north of Prospect) where I make sure I'm on the west side of the street because people act foolish, but I've never had anything rude done like that. Wow.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    xlizellx, you are female.

    ...this is a male vs male stupidity.

    P.S. It is by no means an epidemic, I think I've encountered maybe 4 such idiots in the 7 years I've now lived in PH. Each of them were showing off to their unemployed friends. I didn't pay much attention, or let it ruin my morning, but if my memory is accurate (2 were high school, 1 adult in his 30s, 1 homeless adult with few teeth). ...no one I really derive my self esteem from.
  • benny_b
    benny_b
    Hi, I want to thank everyone for their posts, esp. Invisible Lines who it sounds knows exactly what I'm talking about. It feels horrible to be hated but I just need to ignore it and stay above it.

    Ironically, i'd been noticing the spittle for months and all I thought, 'god people spit a lot.' However there've by this point been so many times where it was clearly directed right at me, and I only was upset enough to post after having it happen twice in a row -- once right before going into my apartment, and then the next morning just as I came out.

    I just saw Xlizellx's post and am thinking, maybe the reason some people don't see this at all is because they live south of Park place, which is in my opinion somewhat of a divide on Franklin avenue culturally. As I said i used to visit my sister at franklin and park pl. pretty often while she lived there for years, and I don't think i even once walked north of park place.

    Nowadays, like I said I'm down by Dean, and when i walk south past Park Place the block is suddenly livelier, nicer, and friendlier. But franklin and dean is a nasty intersection. Maybe it's on this side of franklin that's there more of a racist population?
  • benny_b
    benny_b
    also whynot is right it's a male v. male thing (except for when a girl does it, and that only happened for the first time this weekend, I think, which is why i was theorizing about some muslim sects, perhaps.) Almost every time it's a guy, who can range from homeless crackhead to hateful looking 30-year-old to brain dead looking twenty something, and we're both walking alone.
  • ishtar
    ishtar
    benny_b wrote: Maybe it's on this side of franklin that's there more of a racist population?
    It's more of a stupidity problem and an "easy target". Fortunately most of us have too much to lose and refuse to get into with a bunch of folks who have nothing better to do.
  • benny_b
    benny_b
    Isthar, I know the minority of people who would do this are just knuckleheads. i don't want to be too melodramatic about this garbage, b/c by far most people are just minding their own business.
  • asil
    asil
    I don't think it's just a male v. male thing, or specific to a particular stretch of Franklin. It's happened to me a lot over the 14 years I've lived on the border of PH and CH. I'm female, and queer (not wearing a sign or anything, but definitely not on the femmey side of the spectrum). It's just hatefulness and meanness, and wanting to feel powerful through intimidation--nothing personal toward you, but toward who the spitter feels you represent. It sucks, and it does make me feel like crap when it happens. All you can do is try to be understanding of the history and socioeconomic reasons behind it, and focus on the majority of your neighbors who are friendly or at least indifferent.
  • urbancowgirl
    urbancowgirl
    I'll chime in here. Although I enjoy reading Brooklynian, I don't often have things to add since there isn't much activity on my neighborhood board. Here's one I commiserate with, though! Um, yay?

    I've lived out in Bushwick off the Wilson stop for the past two years, and this happens to me on a regular basis. So often that I'd honestly stopped noticing until reading this. I'm female, but it happens to my husband as well. Sometimes it's a kid, sometimes a young man/woman, sometimes older people. I like to consider it a nice warning gesture, "come any closer than that lougie and I'll mug your ass". Because, really, what other nasty type of person is going to spit at someone else? I don't care what color you are or how much money you have...it isn't acceptable behavior amongst humans.

    Just don't let it get to you. I used to REALLY wish I could do it back. I mean, you have to admit that it's pretty impressive the way they hock it up at will. Alas, I would only embarrass myself with a sad trickle of spittle. Now I just ignore it. My neighborhood is full of kind, respectful, working-class families. If they can ignore the riff-raff and still do right by their families and raise their children well-which they do-then this childless newlywed certainly can.

    And, besides, if they've angered or intimidated you or inspired countless posts on this board then we've given them exactly what they want. Just smile, step away, and say, "Thank you for the warning, sir. I realize now that you are a piece of shit and will kindly move along."
  • whatchuwant
    whatchuwant
    Man, this has got me wondering if its ever happened to me! :shock:

    But I'll be damned if I ever give their nasty-ass spit any recognition. Good thing I'm oblivious to this kind of crap.
  • spnder
    spnder
    benny_b wrote: Nowadays, like I said I'm down by Dean, and when i walk south past Park Place the block is suddenly livelier, nicer, and friendlier. But franklin and dean is a nasty intersection. Maybe it's on this side of franklin that's there more of a racist population?
    Nasty? There's a sushi place and a bodega on the east side, old dudes from the social club on the west. What exactly in "nasty" about it?

    I am a white make in his 30's. I live near this corner and have never had anything like this happen to me. I walk north of Park all the time. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but it sounds odd to me.

    All I can guess is that you look like easy prey.
  • hamilton
    hamilton
    Karl the Druid wrote: i've been told i don't look druish

    I was mistaken, actually you look like the spitting image of one.
  • mha
    mha
    Wow, benny_b, you are NOT crazy. If you are, then I am crazy too. This happens to me ALL the time. Check this: I'm Black. Here is the scenario: I am walking in one direction and the spitter the other, as they pass me they let one go. I hear the 'hawk' an then the wet splatter of spittle. Sometimes they spit on the path that I will eventually take. I shared these experiences with a friend of mine, and I can't say she disbelieved me, but she leaned towards thinking that I happen to live in a 'high spit area', and therefore I was taking a casual social faux pas too personally. I disagreed with her then, and I still do. Case in point: day before yesterday as I passed the bodega on Franklin and Lincoln, I heard the familiar 'hawk' and then 'ptuh', and then a nearby splatter. I turned around and the brother standing at the doorway said, "I didn't spit on you sir." I kept on walking and I raised a hand ; what can one say? Wisdom dictates that if someone is going to act like that then it makes NO sense to try to engage them in discourse about their bad habit. Indeed, to PRESUME they are capable of rational discourse is unwise. As my grandmother has said, and yours too I am sure: If you lay down with dogs you're gonna get fleas. So this is what you do: When you are greeted with that derision, respond in kind. As soon as you hear the spit, spit yourself.

    I cannot rule out race as a reason for the derision. I too am Black, and it pains me to see even Black women doing this in front of me as well. I am inclined to sweep the area in front of my building, as well as two buildings to the left and two to the right of mine. In plain view of me, someone will audibly spit on the pristine sidewalk after I've cleaned it. In addition, people will have their dogs drop huge loads of dog shit right in front of my building. It is an every day indignity. You gotta get a little Buddhist and realize that no one acting this way can feel too good about the world that they live in. There circumstances must be SO DIRE that just seeing you or me upsets the balance of the cosmos. How fucked up is that? Dude, cross the street, and don't engage. "The DEEPER our compassion, the Greater our understanding, and the LESSER our vexations." I feel your pain, believe me -- sorry for the Clintonism, but it's true, I do.

    At the core I believe the source of the derision is class-based. There is a class based contempt because you are seen to be a member of the gentry that has the potential buying power to supplant their very existence. How would you feel if you had a fucked up life because the white man done made life hard for you, and here comes this scrawny white boy with his WHITE sense of entitlement? You're gonna spit dude.... "Hawk - PTOOEY!!!" (That is how you are perceived).
  • hamilton
    hamilton
    To quote you
    "how would you feel if you had a fucked up life because the white man done made life hard for you , and here comes the scrawny white boy with his White sense of entitlement? Your going to spit dude"

    Thats a cop out, if you believe that, why are they spitting at you , a black person?

    Or are they just equal opportunity spitters.
  • armchair_warrior
    armchair_warrior
    As a asian guy who sometimes goes to the ghettos, i been spit at and punch by etc.. its simple as old fashion racism by blacks. If white folks did this they would be compare to the KKK. But being in a pc world, only white folks can be racist.
  • rosweed
    rosweed
    Thanks for this thread. It's happened to me many times, and I thought I was just imagining it. I'm an old non-Jewish white guy who's lived in Crown Heights for five years, so I don't think it's the young male pissing in the corners thing. I think it's a fuck you kind of gesture. Just try to avoid the lugies, avoid the direct stares and don't engage in these pissing matches.
  • tsarina
    tsarina
    I used to get spit at, being a very butch looking woman. Now I dont even notice if it happens any more. Some people just have problems. There are some people in the neighborhood who just spit alot (maybe its accepted in their culture) . I see some lady lean over and drop a wad of goo as she cross the street, nobody is near her or anything, what are you supposed to think? Its gross and disgusting but thats who they are.
    I get alot of people with angry looks too, but I smile and say hello as I pass and usually they smile back and we all have a better day.
    I've gotten pretty good at spotting people looking to bump into me too. But they seem to get the worst of it.
  • saskia
    saskia
    I think this behavior is akin to the looks and stares of hatred I have sometimes gotten when I've been driving and have stopped for pedestrians to cross a street (not at a light). Sometimes these pedestrians - usually young black males - will cross as slowly as humanly possible while shooting a F*ck you look that says they are in control of this one.
  • holla peno
    holla peno
    Guys are jerks. poor guys are usually even bigger jerks. Teenage poor guys especially. You have been physically assaulted. Oh wait, no?
    Next. That is, unless you'd like us to talk about the obvious subtext here, being "I'm a young entitled white guy and I'm gonna flog the fact that I'm Jewish in order to seem somehow oppressed even though everyone and g-d knows that most of the non-Hasidic Jews in this country are middle class."

    "Plus I'm going to wildly calculate that a lot of the people who I suspect of spitting in my vicinity are Muslim."

    They aren't, most of the black people in your end of the neighborhood are either Panamanian (i.e. Catholic), Druggies, (i.e. they spit a lot), or the actual Muslims towards Fulton.

    If you're talking about about down towards Fulton, that might make sense, but that's more Bed-stuy than CH.

    Anyways, no one hates you cause you're Jewish. Not even the pockmarked junkie in my hallway. Get over yourself.
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