Getting spat at because of who i am

pwaltman_1972 wrote: So, for both CtK and BC, if you haven't seen those earlier posts of his, you might want to check them b/c for CtK, I wouldn't waste my breath arguing with MHA (it'd be like arguing with any other white bigot- there's simply no point); and for BC, we're not just jumping on him. Like I said, there is a history with MHA.

Not at all doubting the rationale behind that, as it is definitely a rational response.

However, it is what we have for where the dialogue begins.

Not to sidetrack, but just for comparison, the conflict between Israel and Palestine has been seething and simmering for as long as both sides can remember, with fingers pointing in all directions.

But the dialogue must start somewhere, uncomfortable as that may be to participants and spectators alike.

Hamilton - thanks for working with the quote button/tags by the way. It's a thousand times easier to read and is much appreciated.

In terms of the question about the pyramids and who built them, specifically wondering about the statement your friend made, why include it in this thread (where it's not really on-topic and distracting) instead of another?

A King Tut exhibit thread, perhaps?

Whynot_31, look at Hamilton's remark at 2:01pm today. He states that I am sounding like Colin Ferguson.

Thanks, no worries.

And now for a musical interlude:

MHA u complain about suffering ad hominem attacks but then post to belittle my heritage as though somehow I am less black than you because I do not embrace and embody "black pain"

Give me a break

Your stance is all over the place... as an engineer I prefer to deal with facts and make reasonable inferences where I can that can be substantiated by documented proof... so lets stay in that vein

Fact

My parents came to the US because there is more money in my dad's profession here than in Ghana. If he were indeed running from the awful histories there he would not have been so eager to return that he would build a house and hospital there to spend his retirement

Fact

You have continually contradicted yourself through gross generalizations, ad hominem attacks and near demonizing of whites and anyone who disagrees with or sees the inherent flaws in your arguments as I've shown continually throughout this thread. You claim to want to engage in earnest discussion, but you've shown that in the end you don't want reconciliation or a coming to an understanding with white people, but simply for them to leave your neighborhood and put up with all the irrational behavior stemming from your pain and history

Reread that last sentence and honestly think about it... from what I understand of your posts there is no end in sight; whites and blacks cannot coexist and whites must simply accept being forever indebted and guilty of all the faults faced by blacks in America today

I'm sorry I cannot accept such a passive stance as it's an insult to me as a black man... after seeing what my father was able to accomplish I can't empathize with anyone who rationalizes passing up on all this country has to offer because of history. People have accomplished great things emerging from much worse conditions & less opportunity than black Americans in the past 50 years. It's time to stop making excuses IMO

Brother I am not passive. I am simply saying that if you do not understand the history of the Black American in this country, why not lead with that? If we are talking about Black people spitting on white people, a despicable act no matter how you slice it, and someone says, 'Well, let's try to understand WHY they do it. Maybe it has something to do with HISTORY and how Black people perceive the white people,' and you say, 'No, it cannot be that. I am African, and I don't understand how that could be the case.' I say to you, my brother, then you need to learn your history. You need that. And, if you fail to see how the history of Black people in this country will lead to an act like that, then your statement is an ahistorical act -- which I have said to you, then that is an anti-intellectual act -- which I have said to you, and, if you could so demean the value of the history of your Black brother and sisters in this way, then there is some parallel to the actions of Jews who devalue Jewish history. Jewish scholar and lawyer Alan Dershowitz rightly calls these people self hating jews. My argument is well-reasoned. I am not throwing this out of nowhere. It is based on things that YOU have said.

I actually did say that there is an end in sight, I just don't think the end as we know it is pretty. The end is already occurring. Whenever Black and brown people are picked up for being illegal immigrants and housed as prisoners in industrial zones in New Jersey and given no due process then it is happening, whenever a business owner can be racially profiled (in his OWN store) and imprisoned --- such as what happened to Kevin, the brother who owns the T-shirt spot on Franklin Avenue a few weeks ago, then it is already happening. Whenever a 50-ish year old brother on a bicycle can be maced(!) as he rides it and thrown to the ground (right on Franklin Avenue near Park Place!) -- this happened a few weeks ago, then it is already happening! It's happening! And you tell me I ought NOT to be angry? The question is why aren't YOU angry? Brother, you think your engineer credentials lay bearing on rational discourse? I don't care if your Jesus Christ and you made wine from water.

I have no idea what you mean when you say 'less black'. I have never been in the business of quantifying my Blackness. Those are actions white supremacists and black apologists for white supremacy do. Case in point: Colin Powell when asked by Henry Louis Gates (in a New Yorker article a few years ago) why is it that white people like him so in contradistinction to the likes of a Jesse Jackson or a Farrakhan, Powell didn't skip a beat. He said to Gates, 'Let's face it, I'm black, but I'm not THAT Black.' And he knows what he's talking about. And, YOU know what I'm talking about. You look at the likes of me and say, I'm black, but I am not THAT Black. I am not questioning your 'blackness', sir, you are questioning your own.

And you know what, I am not going to respond to you anymore. This tete au tete is akin to the scene in Ellison's Invisible man where the two Black boys are blindfolded and told to slug it out with each other for coins that the whitefolks around can laugh about and carry on. If you want, send me a private email and we can duke it out privately. As Malcolm said (-- of whom you have not told me if you have read by the way, or Nkrumah's Conscienism for that matter. Have you? I HAVE.....) we need to keep our conflicts behind closed doors.


But as it regards Blackness, let me say this to you. One thing I've always admired about the Jewish people is that before you are accepted into the fold as an adult you have to let your community know that you know what it is to be Jewish. You have to know your HISTORY. Blackvolk tend to believe that just possessing hue wins them citizenship into the kingdom. I have asked you, essentially, 'what's the science' -- do you know what that means CTK? How about 'show and PROVE? I've asked you about Nkrumah's Conscienism, and all I have gotten is a 'how dare you tell me about my blackness, shtik. Dude, you obviously DON'T know your history or we wouldn't be having this discourse. I know mine, and thus the vibrant responses here. I call the white man the white man because that's what the indigenous peoples of this land call(ed) him. And they sure as hell weren't bigoted or misguided. There is no hate in those words. It keeps the conversation honest. I said this before: Everybody wants the Black man to forget his history. They want him to do that so that he will be made placid. Was Malcolm misguided? Because I am not saying anything here he did not say. Was King misguided, because I am not saying anything different than what he said. Was Nkrumah misguided? Fannie Lou Hamer? Tell me how what I have said here differs from any of these people. Because it doesn't. YOU don't know your history sir. Self hating black people rarely do.

MHA, to be fair, I am not so sure CTK is a "self hating Black man" but think more that his cultural differences are preventing him from feeling you. I can feel and understand both of you due to my back and forth life! A lot of my Caribbean people could tend to say similar things as CTK because they don't fully grasp what it really is here and I can grasp it because I have spent SOOOO much time here ;-)

CTK I would like to remind you that a tenured Harvard professor was arrested for trying to enter his own house not too long ago and also called all types of racial slurs by the arresting officers. This type of thing happens every day here and when it does, the offending parties do not care or see if you are African, American, Caribbean or whatever, they just see BLACK(or a much less savory term for it that I don't use)! So you really need to recognize that as well please

A $95,000 question: why are whites five times richer than blacks in the US?

A huge wealth gap has opened up between black and white people in the US over the past quarter of a century – a difference sufficient to put two children through university – because of racial discrimination and economic policies that favour the affluent.

A typical white family is now five times richer than its African-American counterpart of the same class, according to a report released today by Brandeis University in Massachusetts.

White families typically have assets worth $100,000 (£69,000), up from $22,000 in the mid-1980s. African-American families' assets stand at just $5,000, up from around $2,000.

A quarter of black families have no assets at all. The study monitored more than 2,000 families since 1984.

"We walk that through essentially a generation and what we see is that the racial wealth gap has galloped, it's escalated to $95,000," said Tom Shapiro, one of the authors of the report by the university's Institute on Assets and Social Policy.

"That's primarily because the whites in the sample were able to accumulate financial assets from their $22,000 all the way to $100,000 and the African-Americans' wealth essentially flatlined."

The survey does not include housing equity, because it is not readily accessible and is rarely realised as cash. But if property were included it would further widen the wealth divide.

Shapiro says the gap remains wide even between blacks and whites of similar classes and with similar jobs and incomes.

"How do we explain the wealth gap among equally-achieving African-American and white families? The same ratio holds up even among low income groups. Finding ways to accumulate financial resources for all low and moderate income families in the United States has been a huge challenge and that challenge keeps getting steeper and steeper.

"But there are greater opportunities and less challenges for low and moderate income families if they're white in comparison to if they're African-American or Hispanic," he said.

America has long lived with vast inequality, although 40 years ago the disparity was lower than in Britain.

Today, the richest 1% of the US population owns close to 40% of its wealth. The top 25% of US households own 87%.

The rest is divided up among middle and low income Americans. In that competition white people come out far ahead.

Only one in 10 African-Americans owns any shares. A third do not have a pension plan, and among those who do the value is on average a fifth of plans held by whites.

Shapiro says one of the most disturbing aspects of the study is that wealth among the highest-income African-Americans has actually fallen in recent years, dropping from a peak of $25,000 to about $18,000, while among white counterparts of similar class and income it has surged to around $240,000.

In 1984, high-income black Americans had more assets than middle-income whites. That is no longer true.

"I'm a pretty jaded and cynical researcher in some way, but this was shocking, quite frankly, a really important dynamic," said Shapiro. "This represents a broken chain of achievement. In the United States context, when we are thinking about racial equality and the economy we have focused for a long time on equal opportunity.

"Equal opportunity assumes that some people who have that opportunity are going to have pretty high achievements in terms of their jobs, their work, their income, their home ownership.

"The assumption in a democracy is that merit and achievement are going to be rewarded and the rewards here are financial assets. We should see some rough parity and we don't."

The report attributes part of the cause to the "powerful role of persistent discrimination in housing, credit and labour markets. African-Americans and Hispanics were at least twice as likely to receive high-cost home mortgages as whites with similar incomes," the report says.

Although many black families have moved up to better-paying jobs, they begin with fewer assets, such as inheritance, on which to build wealth. They are also more likely to have gone into debt to pay for university loans.

"African-Americans, before the 1960s, first by law and then by custom, were not really allowed to own businesses. They had very little access to credit. There was a very low artificial ceiling on the wealth that could be accumulated. Hence there was very little, if anything, that could be passed along to help their children get to college, to help their children buy their first homes, or as an inheritance when they die," said Shapiro.

Since the 1980s, US administrations have also geared the tax system to the advantage of the better off. Taxes on unearned income, such as shares and inheritance, fell sharply and are much lower than taxes on pay.

"The more income and wealth people had, the less it was taxable," said Shapiro.

There were also social factors, the study found. "In African-American families there is a much larger extended network of kin as well as other obligations. From other work we've done we know that there's more call on the resources of relatively well-off African-American families; that they lend money that's not given back; they help cousins go to school. They help brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, with all kinds of legal and family problems," said Shapiro.

guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2010

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/17/white-people-95000-richer-black

"African-Americans, before the 1960s, first by law and then by custom, were not really allowed to own businesses. They had very little access to credit. There was a very low artificial ceiling on the wealth that could be accumulated. Hence there was very little, if anything, that could be passed along to help their children get to college, to help their children buy their first homes, or as an inheritance when they die," said Shapiro.

^^^This

And now for more conversation....

Outside Child wrote: the offending parties do not care or see if you are African, American, Caribbean or whatever, they just see BLACK(or a much less savory term for it that I don't use)! So you really need to recognize that as well please

If only it were that simple. Yes, there are white people who can only see color, but you seem to be forgetting that here also white people who are sorting within that color. They are more evolved than the former.

The logic goes something like this:

As a result of the history that MHA accurately articulates and the anger that understandably results, black people who have been here for several generations certainly have a different experience than blacks who have not.

Employers prefer someone who may have had the benefit of a better education obtained outside of NYC.

Employers prefer someone who has not experienced living through the disparities of being a black child in NYC. [go to Citizens Committee for Children's website to get stats of the incredible number of african american children in poverty if you like].

I could go on and on.

So, they may be sophisticated enough to sort within a color ...but not within black "categories":

"I'll hire someone from the West Indies, but not someone from Bed Stuy. Not all blacks are the same"

....who hasn't heard someone introduce themselves in a way that says "I'm from xx, we used to be a British colony. It still has an excellent education system and children are taught to respect their parents. It's not like NYC, those children wouldn't get away with that sutff it there. We make something of ourselves."

or, within the AA culture:

"I'm from Atlanta. I went to a private high school, growing up, my father worked for Coca cola as a marketing director,"

You don't think whites give these little speeches some weight?
For both groups (middle class "american" blacks and blacks from elsewhere) it's all about seperating themselves from poor blacks.

--I'd likely make a similar speech if I thought someone was confusing me with white trash--

But (make no mistake) white trash is not nearly as hated by our culture as black trash.

My point:
I think there a lot more "people in power" who are willing to give weight to a "I'm not american black trash speech" that comes from a black born elsewhere than one born locally. ...in my example above, the person from the British colony is going to be the one believed and preferred.

....if Obama had merely been "from Chicago" he may have run into more of this type of categorization. ...but he had the benefit (in many white people's eyes) of being from lots of places: Hawaii, Indonesia, etc.

So, some were able to vote for him because they could convince themselves he wasn't "really African American", he was "just black in color". (yea, going to ivy league, being really articulate, and running against McCain-Palin also helped... )

...but, I for one, was impressed that the democratic party was able to actually pull it off.

...and was impressed that more people than I imagined were able to overcome their fear and hatred of "black trash" and actually create smaller categories. ...one that included "policy wonk, thoughtful guy who seems to be able to bring people togehter"

ah, but in the past many of these same potential employers wouldn't even let you open your mouth.

Something as simple as an address on NY Avenue would have gotten your resume put in the circular file. ...now, the employer might be willing to meet you. He knows you'll be a black guy when you show up for the interview, but is willing to see "what kind of black" you are.

....Likewise, even if the employer knew the applicant was black, the applicant might not get this same "let's meet him and decide" if their resume stated Medgar Evers vs SUNY Stony Brook. Even though he may have learned just as much (or, for that matter, "little").

Employers are guessing at not just the value of a degree but knowledge and culture the employee may bring. ...the less you resemble the hated black trash, the better.

whynot_31 wrote: ah, but in the past many of these same potential employers wouldn't even let you open your mouth.

Something as simple as an address on NY Avenue would have gotten your resume put in the circular file. ...now, the employer might be willing to meet you. He knows you'll be a black guy when you show up for the interview, but is willing to see "what kind of black" you are.

....Likewise, even if the employer knew the applicant was black, the applicant might not get this same "let's meet him and decide" if their resume stated Medgar Evers vs SUNY Stony Brook. Even though he may have learned just as much (or, for that matter, "little").

Employers are guessing at not just the value of a degree but knowledge and culture the employee may bring. ...the less you resemble the hated black trash, the better.

I think you are overvaluing the impact of an address. I think names have more of an impact than anything, but even beyond that experience and education still play a major role. I have a very Ghanaian name... but when I put my resume on Monster/Careerwhatever after getting laid off, I was almost instantly contacted by recruiters, even with my Brooklyn address. Why? Because I got my undergrad at a good school and have acquired a lot of desirable skills. Even if your name is Raekwon Jenkins, if you have the skills & pedigree employers will pursue you. I think the problem is more about black people getting to that point of desirability more than being black.

I thought we had moved on from the unidentified, much discussed spitter character ...but I still continue to believe they tend to be people who hate everyone and spit at blacks as well as whites ...perhaps they hate whites MORE, and spit at them MORE but I think we really are splitting hairs at that point.

Let's go back to those who are "sophisticated enough" to do some sorting. lives. With some exceptions (Howard Beach?) I think this is a skill most people have...

Is the goal simply to
....get them to sort better?
...establish more categories?
...allow applicants methods to say "I am nothing like them" either by their appearance or actions? (degrees, addresses, letters of reference, etc.)

P.S. I put very little value on an address. There are million dollar houses in Crown Heights next to folks who have their lights shut off by Con Ed!

...but, don't kid yourself, lots of people continue to have a stigma of the 'hood.
Crown Heights = Crime Heights
Crown Heights = Crown Heights Riot

...you don't think that mugging that is causing the emergency meeting causes people to stigmatize people from the 'hood?

whynot_31 wrote: I thought we had moved on from the unidentified, much discussed spitter character ...but I still continue to believe they tend to be people who hate everyone and spit at blacks as well as whites ...perhaps they hate whites MORE, and spit at them MORE but I think we really are splitting hairs at that point.

Let's go back to those who are "sophisticated enough" to do some sorting. lives. With some exceptions (Howard Beach?) I think this is a skill most people have...

Is the goal simply to
....get them to sort better?
...establish more categories?
...allow applicants methods to say "I am nothing like them" either by their appearance or actions? (degrees, addresses, letters of reference, etc.)

P.S. I put very little value on an address. There are million dollar houses in Crown Heights next to folks who have their lights shut off by Con Ed!

...but, don't kid yourself, lots of people continue to have a stigma of the 'hood.
Crown Heights = Crime Heights
Crown Heights = Crown Heights Riot

...you don't think that mugging that is causing the emergency meeting causes people to stigmatize people from the 'hood?

Yea but for one, who puts "Crown Heights" or any neighborhood in Brooklyn as the city on their resumes? For example I will not put "Upper East Side" as the city on my envelopes.... I will just put "New York". Likewise I'd expect any kind of professional or person who has even sent/received a piece of mail to do the same. I think this idea of living in "the hood" being some kind of scarlet letter is false. I think there's more credibility behind the idea of a ghetto sounding name being more of an albatross. I've heard stories from BLACK PEOPLE who tossed the resumes of anyone with a ghetto sounding name... 'they didn't want any problems'. Shit like that is really more of a problem IMO.

Plus again whoever is reading the resume gets far enough to see your qualifications, and you have what they are looking for, I think you will be good to go. I know "Rashauns" making nice money on Wall St, etc., but some of the dudes were lucky enough to find their ways into places that taught them the value of an education, which I still think is really at the heart of many of the issues of poverty in the hood

Cool The Kid wrote: [quote=whynot_31]I thought we had moved on from the unidentified, much discussed spitter character ...but I still continue to believe they tend to be people who hate everyone and spit at blacks as well as whites ...perhaps they hate whites MORE, and spit at them MORE but I think we really are splitting hairs at that point.

Let's go back to those who are "sophisticated enough" to do some sorting. lives. With some exceptions (Howard Beach?) I think this is a skill most people have...

Is the goal simply to
....get them to sort better?
...establish more categories?
...allow applicants methods to say "I am nothing like them" either by their appearance or actions? (degrees, addresses, letters of reference, etc.)

P.S. I put very little value on an address. There are million dollar houses in Crown Heights next to folks who have their lights shut off by Con Ed!

...but, don't kid yourself, lots of people continue to have a stigma of the 'hood.
Crown Heights = Crime Heights
Crown Heights = Crown Heights Riot

...you don't think that mugging that is causing the emergency meeting causes people to stigmatize people from the 'hood?

Yea but for one, who puts "Crown Heights" or any neighborhood in Brooklyn as the city on their resumes? For example I will not put "Upper East Side" as the city on my envelopes.... I will just put "New York". Likewise I'd expect any kind of professional or person who has even sent/received a piece of mail to do the same. I think this idea of living in "the hood" being some kind of scarlet letter is false. I think there's more credibility behind the idea of a ghetto sounding name being more of an albatross. I've heard stories from BLACK PEOPLE who tossed the resumes of anyone with a ghetto sounding name... 'they didn't want any problems'. Shit like that is really more of a problem IMO.

Plus again whoever is reading the resume gets far enough to see your qualifications, and you have what they are looking for, I think you will be good to go. I know "Rashauns" making nice money on Wall St, etc., but some of the dudes were lucky enough to find their ways into places that taught them the value of an education, which I still think is really at the heart of many of the issues of poverty in the hood

why not, I definitely don't think there should be more catagories, have you ever heard of divide and conquer?

CTK, sad but true that Jennifer will get hired over Shaquanda which is DEAD WRONG but sadly how it is :-(