Getting spat at because of who i am

lnelson wrote: add?

avoid Chomsky unless you like long naps and having a dictionary nearby.

lnelson wrote: no no, ignore that. i somehow first saw whynot's posting as just saying "add". brooklynian whozawhatsit?

ah, this would be my habit of creating a post and then revising it for grammar or layout. I try not to go back and change content b/c that is sorta cheating.

MHA wrote: So yeah, when you see the garbage and the spit and richocheting BB pellets, it's not right that all of that dysfunction exists, but don't separate it from the threads of time. Because it's all related. Don't act like it has nothing to do with our place in time, because it does. And that's the point I made initally, and that's the point I am making now.

...which is exactly the sort of behavior exhibited toward Blacks when they first moved in.

I get the sense that no one here (including MHA or anyone else) is condoning that behavior. No one is claiming it is right or a good thing to pursue.

Just that history has unfortunately provided a context for it.

You can take your touchy-feely stuff and your self-congratulatory cooing.

What are other means of moving upward and forward, if not together? Isn't working together, not alone, just the sort of thing that Dr. King sought?

One of the major achievements of the 60's Civil Rights movement was progress in eliminating segregation and the whole "Separate But Equal" (as if..) system.

Why go back?

Part of it is that some folks are more comfortable exchanging ideas here, but not going so far as to meet in person.

That's a totally respectable position, one that many folks prefer in order to maintain privacy etc. in real life.

He also may be frustrated that many here appear to be more from the Dr. King school of ideas, as opposed to other schools of thought that have different ideals and a different approach.

whynot_31 wrote: ...no one is saying we should "go back", the question is how we go forward.

Yep, right thee with you, exactly my (and others') point if I'm reading this thread correctly.

Various folks are offering different ideas for this.

And the "how we go forward" for some here may, in fact, be going backward to what so many have worked so hard to end, in years past.

^ that is undoubtedly a huge, perhaps less understood factor in the conversation here, thanks for elaborating.

Even if folks here (say, myself, for example) had been aware of this to some extent, only some here have actually lived it, and actually feel it in a way that others who have not lived it would never be expected to fully grasp.

jeffrey wrote:

What are other means of moving upward and forward, if not together? Isn't working together, not alone, just the sort of thing that Dr. King sought?

One of the major achievements of the 60's Civil Rights movement was progress in eliminating segregation and the whole "Separate But Equal" (as if..) system.

Why go back?

Based on his last post, I'm not sure MHA is still at the table. He may be tired of first being asked why he is "someone pursuing a method that does not, and will not work?!", and then being dismissed for not changing his mind.

--a white guy attempting to answer your question is sure to make things better-- (sarcasm)

Dr. King and the 60's Civil Rights movement can be credited with reducing the institutional racism that allowed the myth of "separate but equal" to be openly practiced. But –as we are all aware- let's not kid ourselves... many aspects of the system continue to function, and they continue to benefit those groups that have always been able to participate, and oppress those that have always not been able to participate. It really doesn’t mater if the systems were designed to function in this manner or not, the outcome and effect is the same.

A while ago, on this thread or one of its clones, I referenced the culture of the Marine Corps to try to make an analogy pertaining to how many Marines choose to not talk about their work with outsiders. It’s by no means a perfect analogy, but –as a result of my upbringing- it is one that constantly comes to my mind as I read this thread and its closely related offsprings.

I was raised as the oldest son of a Marine infantry officer.

When I was born he was a lowly Lieutenant, and some 29 years later he retired as a Colonel. I’m now 41. Without boring you with the entire story, suffice it to say that the adventure involved living on military bases and meeting lots of Marine officers. It’s a different world than a lot of you may have grown up in.

First things first: This post isn’t about my father, or even the Marines. It is about me, and the lens I view MHA’s perspective from. I’ll do my best to stay on topic.

Second things second: This post isn’t about MHA. See “first things first” above.

Back to the story…

The culture of the Marines is intense, but it’s no where near as monolithic as depicted in popular culture. Yea, there are Colonels like those depicted in “The Great Santini” and “A Few Good Men” …but I found that most of them were more like Col Potter in MASH (who was in the Army, not Marines btw…).

That said, let's get two things out of the way:

1. Marines are given dangerous tasks to achieve, many of which involve physical obstacles. Often the obstacle is a person or, a group of people. Marines kill people who try to prevent them achieving their assigned objectives. As the saying goes, "Marines kill people under specific circumstances, but circumstances they are frequently in."

2. Marines who are career officers are really bright and educated; they are not career officers as a result of having a lack of other opportunities. They are career officers by choice, and take great pride in their achievements.

These two facts cause outsiders to view them as absolutely bizarre humans.

….they choose to be in a line of work that will likely result in them killing people?!

Yes, men, women, babies, children, cows, trees, chickens, etc who had nothing to do with the conflict will be killed. Their best friends will be killed. Their government may change its mind and abandon the idea AFTER a lot of killing on both sides has occured.

As a result, the public is fascinated by them …and given images of a barely literate Rambo, and an obedient Oliver North. …some people literally spit at them, while others hold them up as heros. There is no middle ground.

As the object of all of this fascination and hate, they are constantly asked why they do what they do. Given how intense their jobs are, and how central thier jobs are to their core identity, Marines hear such questions as "why are you who you are?"

...a question, frankly, no one is allowed to ask anyone.

The curious questions (and veiled attacks) come from everyone who isn't a Marine, including their own family members. A negative response from the other person is seen (correctly so) as an indictment of them -as a fellow human- not of some abstract thing known as "a Marine".

After a while, they get tired of politely answering and listening and just say “This is who I am. Accept me or don’t, but this is who I am. I can’t and won’t be anyone else”

"Why are you asking why I am a Marine? Everyone knows what the Marines do. Yes, I am a Marine."

A lot of people don't understand the answer and get stuck...
Why is he a Marine? Why doesn’t he just do something else?
Is it a genetic mutation? Is it a choice?
Are they dead inside? …clearly there must be something wrong with him/her, no one would choose to do something like that without there being something wrong with them.

A lot of those are unanswerable questions and thoughts.

No, there is nothing wrong with them.
No, they can’t just become less intense, and become happy go lucky.
No, they can’t do something else as a career and be true to themselves.
No, they aren’t miserable …but they are being made miserable by having to explain "why they feel what they feel and do what they do” over and over to an audience that seems unable to hear.

Yes, it does limit others ability to understand them and banish them from a lot of social situations.

As a son, I got these questions about my father and "the Marines". At 41 years old, I still often respond “I do not claim to fully understand" and then walk away”.

My conclusion is simply that they do what they do.
i.e. There is often no great patriotism or love of country that drives Marines, and their motivations vary. The reasons for joining the Marines and becoming a LT are occasionally simplistic, but they are no where near as complex and personal as the reasons one becomes a career officer ..those reasons are way too intense for a message board (even this one!).

They are not heros or villains. Nobody likes to kill an innocent by standard, yet sometimes there is no time to ask that guy what his intentions are....

Like Jews (and every other large grouping based on whatever characteristic you can think of), they are also not all the same.

…but yea, there are some commonalities.

…but, no, "they" do not like to be referred to as some homogenous mass. Marines know that they are to speak on behalf of the larger group only while using great caution. ...many conclude it is best not to talk at all, to avoid being misinterpreted.

Part of what sustains a Marine officer is the intense support that other officer’s are able to provide them.

It is a very exclusive club, with clear norms and traditions. When a member of the club embarrasses himself or the group, the group gets angry. Let me know if you ever get one of them to try to explain the culture of brotherhood known as Semper Fi.

Enough. Let's get to the relevence to this thread...

I assume that MHA belongs to a very exclusive group I will call “the college educated black males”.

Sadly, (unlike the Marines) the group is completely disorganized.
It is spread throughout the country.
They are in different professions.
Not a lot unites them.

For some reason, MHA seems to have determined it is his task/burden in life to help other blacks that were not fortunate enough to make it to the middle class.

He’d like to kick their butt (instill in them self discipline and respect) partly because he feels their trashiness is unfairly being held against him, but also because of a clear sense of “but for the grace of God, there go I”.

He perceives potential team members (CTK) as abandoning him.

He perceives most whites as the civilians I reference above.

….and part of him might really hate that he was somehow given this burden.

…he might not be able to live with himself if he just "chose" to go to work and come home everyday acting like everything was happy. It isn't. He identifies with the larger group, even though they might annoy and embarass him.

Instead, he'd like to make a difference in how he is perceived as an individual, and how the group he would like to "save" is spoken about.

You see, he doesn’t like “black trash” but he also doesn’t blame them for who they are. …because somewhere he likely got a break that allowed him to not be “them”.

It might have been a caring parent.

It might have been a scholarship.

It might have been a determination that the only way “to get the hell outta this ghetto” is to do X (go to college, avoid the police, not sell drugs, hang out alone because my friends are going no where, whatever).

Many blacks likely tell him, you are over 25, not in prison and college educated. You made it. Keep running. Run like hell. “You got yours, make the best of it.” Do. not. look. back.

He seems to respond. "This isn't a choice.
This is who I am. Accept me or don’t, but this is who I am. I can’t and won’t be anyone else”

…man, am I glad I wasn’t dealt that hand.

Self discipline and respect will go along way toward helping folks, and MHA certainly has a better shot of getting thru to the "them" being discussed than someone like me would.

…a lot of the solutions proposed in the academic study papers I’ve been referencing tout “solutions” that depend upon self respect and discipline already being part of the student. ….which makes them complete fantasies for a lot of the people we are talking about helping.

Without "self respect and discipline", no progress will be made by the silly, poorly run social programs operated by people who might not even understand who they are serving.

I certainly don’t claim to know how to instill the qualities of discipline and self respect in a kid/neighbor who had a crappy upbringing.

You know: one who fears the police. One whose family is evicted regularly. One who has no dad and relatives in prison. One who has a mom on public assistance.

It’s unfair to expect MHA to know how to reach this kid/neighbor either.

…hey, if over the course of his life, MHA manages to reach a group of people (hell, call them a mini “nation” if you want) or instills in them self discipline and self respect, he’ll have done far more than most of us. …Even if his “nation” is only 15 people.

...if one respects themselves they are likely to respect others, and/or receive respect from others.

MHA, make no mistake, I am still not voting for you as the leader who will bring us all together to help the large percentage of Crown Heights residents that are marginalized and oppressed.

….but congratulations on all that other stuff. Seriously.

P.S. If I ran a school, I'd give you access to the kids and its facilities.

(edited for grammar)

Whew, homeowner, I thank you, whynot_31, I thank you. I really don't need your vote though. There is no hope left for Black people in Crown Heights. I've crunched the numbers 12 ways 'til Sunday. The future offers us a gradual receding of the Black population brought on by rising real estate and rental prices, and spurts of Black on Black violence -- and the occasional Black on white violence. There are going to be more police officers, and probably a camera or two, more patrols, but for the most part, you guys won.

It feels good to be heard, and understood, albeit by only two people. It's frustrating to hear my words described as a retreat from intelligent discourse: Inelson, if you really want to read something by West, pick up 'Prophecy Deliverance!' Read that and then come and talk to me. Most of you perceive much of what I have to say as unintelligible gobbledygook, and if such is the case, then my God, what must be totally incomprehensible to you are the Black people you walk by daily.

You think people enjoy being supplanted due to economics? The likes of CTK can rationalize it as a function of inflation, and come up with little moral ditties linking virtue to marketablility, but let's be frank, that is nothing more than attempt to color the lenses red so that the blood of the Bloods does not appear so.

It's amazing that a Black Nationalist/Pan Africanist stance is seen as a retreat from discourse, but the Zionist stance that led to the founding of Israel is applauded. Indeed, CTK's country was founded by a Pan Africanist, and Kwame Nkrumah must be turning in his grave right now... Maybe the African struggle for liberation should occur with a Yitzhak Rabin sound track with Yo-Yo Ma on Cello. Maybe then it would be thought of with some regard and not dismissed as a retreat from discourse.

Every ethnic group in this country contemporaneously-- does business with their 'own kind'. The Jewish Hasids only do business with other Jewish kin, the South Koreans with their own kin, the Chinese, ditto, and the amalgamated whitefolk with each other as well, and those others also assimable into that ghastly, sterile, borg-like existence. Blackvolk are the only ones encouraged to not 'do for self', to take their place at the bottom of the whitened totem pole. Occasionally one may rise to the top, but truly he or she serve no other purpose than accoutrement to the white ego.

King was granted sainthood, but not too many people recall the vigorous debate against all of that he wanted. The integration of Black people into the surrounding white world has led to the collapse of Black institutions, and the dysfunction you see today (A professional crackhead asked me for money 5 times today) is the result.

Homeowner is correct, and in ways that I could not accomplish he/she has summed up my stance perfectly.

I leave you with this. And on this maybe CTK will agree. I am not your 'bro'. I am probably older than you. Please when you see a Black man, and you are eager to bare your teeth and let him know that you want to be his friend, don't 'hey wassup bro' him. Just say hello. No Black man I know likes to be addressed that way. Stop trying to 'speak my language' because I don't even speak my language.


It's amazing, the challenge here was to try to determine why Benny B saw spit fly as he walked by, and Benny B hasn't said anything in like, forever. In the meantime I've tried to supply a rationale, and that has been discounted, so essentially, if what I had to say is not accurate, then the spit is flying for no reason whatsover, at least no reason that you want to hear. Which is typical whitefolks. If you don't like what you hear, then what is said makes no sense, and is characterised with pejoratives. There is no room for discourse here. I have made so many points and where I have asked a question instead of answers I am told 'contradiction!' "hate!" 'misguided!', etc. This is draining. And it is obvious that I am not going to convince you of anything. So what's the point. It's your world whitefolks.

MHA wrote:
Black people are being moved out of this neighborhood due to the subtle effective power of economics and you want me to sing 'Reach out and Touch, Somebody's Hand' with you? Are you nuts?? I can respect you, I can even break bread with you, but all of this lovey-dovey business is an illusion to just make YOU feel good about yourself: "Look at me, I am having intelligent discourse with a Black person." Meanwhile my rent is rising, and I don't have Jimmy's blond hair or Mary's milky white tah-tahs to gurantee me professional mobility. Get over yourself. You want to know why the spit flies when you walk by? It flies because Black people see right through YOU. They see that it's not about you wanting to know anybody. It's about you wanting to use them as a means to your end. .

This is what I was referring to when I said it appeared MHA was uninterested in intelligent discourse. I guess I should have ended the sentence, "with me," if it was me he meant by "you," but I didn't take "you" to mean me. I took it to mean anyone non-Black.

I'm not sorry I thought it might be interesting to read books and talk about them, but I regret suggesting it because it seems to have catalyzed this thread's crashing to an end. And I regret that I used Cornel West as an example, because I never imagined my imaginary read-and-talk thing would only include books that would require Black people to explain things to non-Blacks.

Also offering up retiring this thread, as it is a pretty close twin of the other thread I offered a vote to retire earlier.

Same show of hands here, yep or nope.

Thanks...

OK you want books?

They Came Before Columbus by Dr Ivan Van Sertima
The Isis Papers by Dr Frances Cress Welsing
The Iceman Inheritance by Michael Bradley
Stolen Legacy by George G.M. James
The African Origin of Civilization by Cheikh Anta Diop
Christopher Columbus and the Afrikan Holocaust by John Henrick Clarke
The mis=education of the Negro by Carter G Woodson
The Willie Lynch Letter and the making of a Slave by Willie Lynch
Destruction of Black civilization by Chancellor Williams

Anything else by these authors and also anything from Tim Wise

I got my right middle finger up Holla Peno, and I ain't salutin'... I wonder, do any of the Black folks you went to school in Texas live in Crown Heights? I bet you I know more Black people here than you do. So, if such is the case, then I can readily say that if I tell you this is their consensus, then I speak for them. If my neighbor can irately share his experience with police officers who want him to show them identification -- and he has been living here for over twenty years, then yes, I speak for him. You know that's the same Bull-sh--'sufferin' succotash' they said to Martin Luther King when he would roll up, you know that? 'Who are you? You can't speak for our negroes, you don't even live here.' And King would say, I might not live here Pharoah, but I know suffering, and my people are suffering here in your Egypt. Pharaoh, let my people go.' So when you say your spiel about not being able to speak for Black people, I hear your attempt to diminish my experience. To diminish Our experience. And when I tell you how it feels to be Black around here, and you say, 'Oh c'mon, your experience is by no means everyone elses..' Dude: I got my middle fingers up. Both of them MFGFYS. Seriously, do it slowly.


Inelson, I thought the sheer magnitude of all I have said before you joined the thread was intelligent discourse. I think you're late to the game, and you're 'I know, let's have an intelligent party' shtik just rubs MHA the wrong way. It's too late for your input. Still, no soup for you. This has devolved into chaos because I have disproportionately answered more than my share of commentary. There has been no responses to most of what I have said, rather just a characterization of it. I'm tired of most of you. You don't want consensus. You want assimilation. You're the borg. You're the reason why the Black kids stay to themselves in the lunch room. No wonder they spit. I feel like shooting a loogie myself. I'm done

Aye to closing this thread. Please, the sooner the better.

When does stuff like this ever happen to white people? Yet some of you have the audacity to claim you don't have it any easier :roll:

Justice for the Death Row 10!

Governor George Ryan pardoned four members of the Death Row 10 -- Aaron Patterson, Leroy Orange, Madison Hobley and Stanley Howard. That four of the Death Row 10, African American men tortured by Jon Burge and his officers, have been pardoned is a testament to the struggle that the Campaign initiated and has been a major part of locally and nationally for more than four years. Now the dirty secret of what went on at Area 2 and 3 interrogation rooms in Chicago is national and international news. Here is their story. The struggle continues.

click here for more, "A victory for the Death Row 10: The Struggle Continues," New Abolitionist, May 2003.
Jon Burge, former Lieutenant of Chicago's Area II Violent Crimes Detective Unit, was fired from the Chicago police department on February 10, 1993, for torture. Burge was responsible for torturing more than 40 Black men during interrogations.



Methods of torture included electric shocks, suffocation hoods, Russian roulette, burns, beatings, and threats of death. The 1989 decision in Wilson vs. City of Chicago brought these facts to light. Burge's reign began in 1973. For twenty years, he received advances, promotions and support from political figures such as former police Superintendent Leroy Martin and Mayor Richard Daley. Through the organizing efforts of committed activists, Jon Burge was dismissed from the Chicago police force.

"The Death Row 10" are men convicted and sentenced to death as a result of the use of torture to obtain "confessions" by the Area II commander and fellow officers.

1. DERRICK KING - February 23, 1980. Threatened and repeatedly beaten in the head.


2. REGINALD MAHAFFEY - September 2, 1983. Threatened with a gun pointed at his head, punched, kicked, thrown against a wall, and suffocated with a plastic garbage bag.


3. JERRY MAHAFFEY - September 2, 1983. Threatened, kicked, beaten, and suffocated with a plastic garbage bag.


4. STANLEY HOWARD - November 1, 1984. Handcuffed to a wall ring, slapped, punched, kicked, and suffocated with a plastic bag and typewriter cover until he passed out.
[For more info about Stanley Howard, check out his web site at http://members.aol.com/sjhoward10/main.html]
See also: New Abolitionist, August 2002


5. LEROY ORANGE - January, 1984. Pants pulled down, testicles and buttocks electroshocked, needles stuck in his buttocks, and suffocated with a plastic bag.


6. LEONARD KIDD - January, 1984. Pants pulled down, testicles and buttocks electroshocked.


7. AARON PATTERSON - April 30, 1986. Threatened with a gun, beaten, kicked, and suffocated twice with a typewriter cover during 25 hours of interrogation.


8. ANDREW MAXWELL - November 12, 1986. Handcuffed to a wall, threatened, repeatedly kicked, punched and slapped.


9. MADISON HOBLEY - January 6, 1987. Handcuffed to a wall ring, threatened, punched in the stomach, chest and face, and suffocated with a typewriter cover until he passed out.
See also: New Abolitionist, April 2001
See also: New Abolitionist, August 2002


10. GRAYLAND JOHNSON - April 17, 1988. Handcuffed to a wall, beaten with a telephone book, suffocated with a plastic bag, head shoved in toilet full of urine.


11. RONALD KITCHEN - August 25, 1988. Handcuffed to a wall, beaten with a telephone book, blackjack and phone receiver, and struck in the groin and knees.
See also: New Abolitionist, August 2002

In Dear Memory... Frank Bounds was one of the original members of the Death Row 10, who died in prison of medical neglect.

* The number of known Burge victims sentenced to Death Row has grown to 12 since "The Death Row 10" organized themselves in 1998.

JON BURGE'S VICTIMS STILL REMAIN ON DEATH ROW!

Along with several others, I too agree the discussions in this thread and the other one have indeed run their course.

Thanks to al that have spoken their mind honestly and in a neighborly and civil manner here.

Locking it now.