Violence in Bodega on Classon, Near Sterling
Comments
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Hamilton wrote: instead of being evasive go to the bodega and speak to the owner, listen to his version and pls let me know if he is an african american, or is that to much to ask, but knowing you, you'll try to dance away from this request.
Hamilton,
What are you trying to get at here? What difference does it make if the proprietor is African American?
I don't know about that specific bodega, but, if you go into many of the stores and restaurants on Nostrand Ave. that are black-owned, you'll be served from behind bullet proof glass. Clearly, this kind of unjustified violence is an issue for blacks and everybody else who works in retail outlets in this neighborhood. -
Is it me, or is Hamilton missing my point? I honestly don't see where I misconstrued anything here, but I am at a loss to explain to him that there was no error made on my part. Can someone help me out here?
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Hamilton, you think MHA has pre-ordained (and I presume racialist--based on your insistence on his/her discerning the race of the bodega owner) sympathies that cruelly overlook the hard work of every-day bodega workers.
MHA thinks that Hamilton gives short shrift to the benighted kids who are growing up and trying to develop their moral compasses in highly unstable circumstances.
Come on people, MHA is also clearly sympathetic to the bodega worker, and Hamilton doesn't hate at risk kids so much as he is outraged by the vulnerability of the working-class bodega owners. We should focus on solutions rather than problems, that's what got these kids into trouble,right?--but we are the adults!!!
thanks for the link whynot, that's useful....someone should print out the webpage and give a copy to the bodega owner for his window as a token of community concern. -
Unfortunately, the website that whynot posted to seems to be dead; none of the links I clicked on went anywhere.
The Omega Boys Club out of San Francisco frames violence as a social disease, i.e. it is catching, and it can be arrested with the right recovery plan. I believe that metaphor is especially apt, since we know that exposure to violence does change the way our brains respond to threats, whether real or imagined. Sadly, violence just begets more violent behavior.
In terms of what we can do as individuals, I think supporting and participating in community groups that are already in place (such as Save Our Streets or the Crow Hill Community Association) is the best bet. These groups are working to make our community a safer and happier place for all its residents. -
Link works fine for me.
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ParkSloperite wrote: The impulsivity of this girl is indicated by the very choice of shoplifted goods. To grab a bag of chips (noisy, not really worth the $1.50), is pure impulse. She was not making a calculated choice, she was most likely acting on sheer impulse. So, I suspect that the vigilantism, as mha suggested, was because of another impulse of hers--walking home, she was ashamed at admitting getting caught and rather than admitting to what amounts to an embarrassing and not so flattering story, so she victimized herself and told some story about getting attacked. I think the real villain here is this girl.
The bag of chips the girl tried to snag was 50 cents. The owner of the store works long hours for little money. The kids that returned to blacken his eyes and trash his store are scum thugs. I asked him right after it happened why he didn't press charges there was no real answer just that he wanted to drop it. The difference between a simple punch and fall and the same punch and a fall where somebody dies from a head injury is..nothing just luck. These kids learn early on that acting like pigs gets you the respect of fellow swine. The burden of fingering the perp of the punch is important but the police should track down the little hunks of human waste even if they are note put before a judge to get an earlier start on a life behind bars. People who steal and beat people as a way of life are useless
While we can't rewind the tape, so to speak, I suspect she rallied all these vile kids, who very probably thought they were acting in some sort of defense of an 'innocent'. (and yes, MHA, is it very ironic that those who habitually rail against the law are often the first to feel the full flush of outrage at being wronged).
Rashomon meets Crown Heights?? -
catwalkertexasranger wrote: [quote=ParkSloperite]The impulsivity of this girl is indicated by the very choice of shoplifted goods. To grab a bag of chips (noisy, not really worth the $1.50), is pure impulse. She was not making a calculated choice, she was most likely acting on sheer impulse. So, I suspect that the vigilantism, as mha suggested, was because of another impulse of hers--walking home, she was ashamed at admitting getting caught and rather than admitting to what amounts to an embarrassing and not so flattering story, so she victimized herself and told some story about getting attacked. I think the real villain here is this girl.
The bag of chips the girl tried to snag was 50 cents. The owner of the store works long hours for little money. The kids that returned to blacken his eyes and trash his store are scum thugs. I asked him right after it happened why he didn't press charges there was no real answer just that he wanted to drop it. The difference between a simple punch and fall and the same punch and a fall where somebody dies from a head injury is..nothing just luck. These kids learn early on that acting like pigs gets you the respect of fellow swine. The burden of fingering the perp of the punch is important but the police should track down the little hunks of human waste even if they are note put before a judge to get an earlier start on a life behind bars. People who steal and beat people as a way of life are useless
While we can't rewind the tape, so to speak, I suspect she rallied all these vile kids, who very probably thought they were acting in some sort of defense of an 'innocent'. (and yes, MHA, is it very ironic that those who habitually rail against the law are often the first to feel the full flush of outrage at being wronged).
Rashomon meets Crown Heights??
I don't disagree, I really do share your anger--believe me. And there is a baser part of me that would like nothing better than to see whatever punk did this be exposed to the same vindictive and cruel behavior as he perpetrated.
But here's the kicker, so long as we remain mired in this discourse of anger, hate and revenge, we are being reduced to these kids level. We are better than these kids, and we should guide these kids. The problem with just leaving it with at anger at these kids, who are admittedly mired in 'scumbag' behavior, is that they are not going to go away--AND they are capable of change--the exciting part.
So, we have to understand why they are the way they are, not because we like them, or are namby-pambys, but because we want to be able to be safe in our communities when, inevitably, these kids get out of jail, who share the streets with us and our children and our grandparents etc.
And because we are civilized and care about our fellow beings, whether or not they are always behaving in a civilized manner. -
krowonhill wrote: Unfortunately, the website that whynot posted to seems to be dead; none of the links I clicked on went anywhere.
One can find other links here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=juvenile+delinquency+prevention&aq=4sx&aqi=g-s1g-sx9&aql=&oq=juvenille+del&gs_rfai=Ckz4Ns4BRTMTnHZi8zgTHmdCxCgAAAKoEBU_Q1SXA -
.
i kinda think the problem with americas young is they are being contaminated by the medias glorification of thugs and drug dealers in both films and recordings.
any thoughts on that. -
The owner is not African American. He had video of the incident, but declined to take action against the attackers (some of whom are not "kids") because of time, effort and the possibility of problems in the future. Obviously the attackers assumed their actions were justified, and it's unfortunate that a victim feels too threatened by another "justified" attack to pursue legal action. Regardless of whether or not the punch was an accident or purposeful I believe that the owner's decision to simply beef up security is a sign of someone being forced to operate under the same "street logic" that led to the attack. By doing this he avoids a situation where for example several attackers are arrested and the others damage the store or attack again because, "this dude who punched a girl, got my boy locked up."
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rezist wrote: The owner is not African American. He had video of the incident, but declined to take action against the attackers (some of whom are not "kids") because of time, effort and the possibility of problems in the future. Obviously the attackers assumed their actions were justified, and it's unfortunate that a victim feels too threatened by another "justified" attack to pursue legal action. Regardless of whether or not the punch was an accident or purposeful I believe that the owner's decision to simply beef up security is a sign of someone being forced to operate under the same "street logic" that led to the attack. By doing this he avoids a situation where for example several attackers are arrested and the others damage the store or attack again because, "this dude who punched a girl, got my boy locked up."
Wait, so there were ADULTS beating this bodega owner? Does anyone know the relative age of these attackers? -
and can anyone give the exact location at this bodega, I want to be sure to patronize it if I'm in the hood (least I can do).
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independent mind wrote: But here's the kicker, so long as we remain mired in this discourse of anger, hate and revenge, we are being reduced to these kids level. We are better than these kids, and we should guide these kids. The problem with just leaving it with at anger at these kids, who are admittedly mired in 'scumbag' behavior, is that they are not going to go away--AND they are capable of change--the exciting part.
But at the expense of who? That small group is outnumbered 3 to 1 by the teens who do the right thing no matter how hard the peer pressure or the environment they grow up in is. Take a look Benjamin Banaker High School or Brooklyn College High School. These kids come from the same area, same environment, some are even foster children or homeless yet they get goods grades, try and help the community are respectful to themselves and others. -
stacey wrote: [quote=independent mind]But here's the kicker, so long as we remain mired in this discourse of anger, hate and revenge, we are being reduced to these kids level. We are better than these kids, and we should guide these kids. The problem with just leaving it with at anger at these kids, who are admittedly mired in 'scumbag' behavior, is that they are not going to go away--AND they are capable of change--the exciting part.
But at the expense of who? That small group is outnumbered 3 to 1 by the teens who do the right thing no matter how hard the peer pressure or the environment they grow up in is. Take a look Benjamin Banaker High School or Brooklyn College High School. These kids come from the same area, same environment, some are even foster children or homeless yet they get goods grades, try and help the community are respectful to themselves and others.
This gets into deep questions about nature/nuture and so forth--things beyond my knowledge. I don't know why there are 'good eggs' and 'bad eggs', I agree with you that there are, I'm sure there are complex theories about oxycontin and ptsd, father-figure stuff etc.
What I do know is that the one thing we owe younger people is our guidance, and second chances. I think what this mob did is disgraceful, on a side note, as a descendant of jews who fled the nazis, I am all too familiar with the vile possibilities of mob violence and racialized vigilantism. It comes in all shapes and forms. What do we do with nazis after wwII? Did we massacre them? no. did we abandon them as 'bad' people? no. We left it to the legal system and practiced forgiveness, and hoped for the best. If we could do that for the Nazis, and if African Americans could do that for slavery (a legacy which is still directly linked to the disenfranchisement and conditions of these kids--NOT that this is an excuse, of course) I think it is the least we owe these budding JDs.
PS before WWIII breaks out, for the record, I am NOT calling these kids (or anyone) nazis....just pointing out the power of forgiveness. -
Well,
Believe it or not, I am not forgiving them. I wish we had a social system that would regard consequence more effectively, and we don't unfortunately. I think the shopkeeper's pragmatism regarding his reluctance to press charges was probably due to his fear of what reprisal would meet him were he to do so.
At the same time, I chafe at the bit to call these children -- and adults apparently -- by a pejorative. That alone doesn't solve the question, and I think it adds to the illusion of who we are looking 'at' when we think abstractly about the individuals who hit this gentleman.
I actually think I have a solution to all of the indiginities that we witness. A free press which is accessible to people in the neighborhood. If there was a weekly publication that had as it's focus Crown Heights -- that covered what we spoke of, it would rouse public opinion. The individuals who are guilty of hitting this man would be less inclined to do so if they knew that their actions would be known. What do you think about that? -
As the net takes over, I suspect it can provide such accountabilty online. Presently, the digital divide remains too large.
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MHA wrote:
Interesting idea. It reminds me of how Jane Jacobs described well-functioning neighborhoods. They always have "eyes on the street," people who are willing to interfere when necessary, whether the neighborhood busybody or the storeowner. She actually does relate this to kids who may turn to trouble without those interfering adults around. In this case, the weekly would take the role of the "eyes" for the people who are willing to interfere.
I actually think I have a solution to all of the indiginities that we witness. A free press which is accessible to people in the neighborhood. If there was a weekly publication that had as it's focus Crown Heights -- that covered what we spoke of, it would rouse public opinion. The individuals who are guilty of hitting this man would be less inclined to do so if they knew that their actions would be known. -
I thought of a couple of books that are relevant to some of the questions raised here. Both were written by men who grew up in violent urban areas and became community activists as adults. Incidentally, one of the authors is black, and the other is white. Both are very readable and highly recommended.
Street Soldier by Joe Marshall
All Souls: A Family Story from Southie by Michael Patrick MacDonald
Let me know if you decide to pick one up. I'd love to hear your thoughts. -
I will investigate them!
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of course this would be after the fact, and only be able to reach a few....
http://www.nonprofitjobmarket.org/jobDetail.aspx?jobId=4210
...but we remain in a society that doesn't seem to believe in prevention, so I'll take what I can get. -
Rezist and Independent Mind,
Can you guys recall when this incident happened? I would like to include the date of the crime in the name of the thread. Ditto for anyone else out there who knows. -
Puply,
In an earlier exchange between you and Krowonhill you describe her desire to know what is going on in the mind of the attackers as wishful thinking, and I will concede to you that such is the case -- objectively. She wishes to know; I wish to know as well. I think we ought not to lose sight of what motivates people to act in the way that they do. This doesn't mean we are approving of their behavior, but, much like the empirical scientist who wishes to determine the hows and whys of things, I think an indulging in social science is equally valid. We need to understand motivation.
Years ago, I was mugged. To this day I can recall the day, the time, the year, and even the temperature when it happened. Time to time I think about the crime. I think about the fact that I was mugged, and beaten -- for NICKELS; spare change. Sparing you the minutiae of what occurred, the last thing my assailants said to me was, "Gimmee your nickels. Gimmee your nickels!" For years I could not understand why someone would punch me repeatedly in the face for spare change. For nickels. My own sense of outrage blinded me to the only truth that finally gave me comfort. It was all a quest for POWER. The rationale was money, but it was all about power. That's all it ever is, I think; a means to that end. And after figuring that out, I realized how powerless so many of the kids I lived around then were. There families were seriously messed up. And here I would come skipping along, school books in hand, reading -- for the fun of it. Dude, imagine a fourteen year old Black kid with a copy of the New Yorker magazine in his back pocket. That was me. In Brownsville.
A great deal of crime starts out of a sense of powerlessness, and I think that those kids were like the maddening crowd that gathered in one of my favorite books, 'Lord of the Flies', to kill the protagonist. Those who have something substantial in either title, person, or pocket, are always vulnerable to those who perceive themselves as powerless, and do not want to be reminded that there are people out there that THEY think are better than themselves. So, when the moment provides opportunity, they strike, justifying their actions by claiming they were the wronged.
As a person of Caribbean heritage, there are countless stories of Caribbean immigrants returning to their homeland in seek of retirement, or to gain the satisfaction of giving back to their native soil. Once there, many of them are accosted in the most awful of ways, besides being robbed. It is as if having returned 'from foreign' as we would say, warrants that the criminal dish out an added malfeasance to the indignity of being robbed. When these crimes are described, you can't help but think that the perpetrator acted out of some sort of fury at their victim. That their actions were as a result of a need for power. I am no social scientist, but I will wager some research has been done on this. My only reference right now is Mos Def's "How You Got":
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I completely share MHA's perception of the problem.
MHA, yes, there is a lot of research out there in the fields of sociology, social work and psychology.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&&sa=X&ei=gZdVTOahOIL58Ab1reSTBQ&ved=0CBUQBSgA&q=black+oppression+juvenile+delinquency&spell=1
However, despite the material being well written and researched, and written in a manner that it offends very few ....no one seems to implement the findings.
Which (depending upon my mood) leads me to believe:
1. As a society, we actually don't give a shit about the "minority kids" doing the crimes ....but enjoy writing about them.
and/or
2. We understand the problems, but lack the resources, commitment, and know-how to fix them.
and/or
3. As long as those in power are not effected by those kids, they don't really care about the victims either (the quote "it's just black on black crime" comes to mind.)
....I sure there are 4, 5, 6, etc. but you see where I'm going.
P.S. I've always liked the cartoons in the New Yorker, but didn't start reading it until a few years ago. -
From a public policy stance -- independent of whether or not you deem the doers of such crimes as 'scum', 'scumbags', or whatever, it seems more practical (i.e. cheaper) to make attempts at rehabilitating such offenders of the law than to incarcerate them repeatedly over their lifetimes. I know public policy issues are always the case for great debate, but that's my sense. If we work ourselves into a foamy lather calling 'them' names, we solve little.
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...as you are aware, this why the researchers avoid such terms. Using such terms often appeals to only Conservatives. As you point out, repeated incarceration often does very little. In some cases it merely makes the "scumbag" too old to be violent anymore. (thankfully, the Conservatives rarely can get anything implemented on their own)
Likewise, the researchers don't want to only appeal to the Bleeding Heart Liberals by using terms such as "societal victims", or terms which it make it seem as if the kids have some uncontrollable disease that frees them from all responsibility for their actions. (thankfully, the Bleeding Heart Liberals rarely can get anything implemented on their own).
The professor I referenced (whose name let's not mention here), wrestled with such language issues ...but now seems to have found an audience, and career success.
I predict his success is a result of several things:
growing older, and using more palatable terms
and/or
getting himself a tenure at an HBCU, where he likely found a more accepting audience. ....Of course, this is all a supposition on my part. I had not googled him or thought much about him until the past few weeks.
8)
Note to readers: If you want to know the professor I'm talking about, I'll PM it to you. I ask that we not mention his name here b/c the man really should not be subject to the impressions of a student (aka whynot) that he had 15 years ago when he (or someone else) googles his name.
I'd like folks to leave the name of the university he now teaches off these pages for similar reasons.
I.E. ....the professor was at the beginning of his career, and now seems to be doing well.
...the student has grown up as well
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krowonhill wrote: [quote=MHA]
Interesting idea. It reminds me of how Jane Jacobs described well-functioning neighborhoods. They always have "eyes on the street," people who are willing to interfere when necessary, whether the neighborhood busybody or the storeowner. She actually does relate this to kids who may turn to trouble without those interfering adults around. In this case, the weekly would take the role of the "eyes" for the people who are willing to interfere.
I actually think I have a solution to all of the indiginities that we witness. A free press which is accessible to people in the neighborhood. If there was a weekly publication that had as it's focus Crown Heights -- that covered what we spoke of, it would rouse public opinion. The individuals who are guilty of hitting this man would be less inclined to do so if they knew that their actions would be known.whynot_31 wrote: As the net takes over, I suspect it can provide such accountabilty online. Presently, the digital divide remains too large.
Today's NYT:
In India, Using Facebook to Catch Scofflaw Drivers
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/technology/02traffic.html -
That's the word! Accountability; public accountability. The rationale for a small newspaper is much like my belief in school uniforms. Having worn school uniforms in my own youth, I recall how it was of paramount importance that as kids we would feel social pressure to behave in the streets, because we were readily identifiable by the school uniform we wore. Of course, many would go around this by taking off their uniform, but this was eventually frowned upon.
What is lacking is public accountability. -
needless to say, public accountability is not something that is easy to achieve.
Even if one was to record the actions of everyone in the city (via a well read local newspaper, via Facebook post digital divide, or via cameras everywhere like they have in London or Singapore) you'd still have to do something about the evidence you collected.
....Being able to "do something" would depend upon one or more of the following:
1. Functioning parents to give their children consequences.
2. A functioning police-court system to give them consequences
3. A functioning "neighborhood system" that gives consequences to the law breakers. (this last one lends itself to vigilantes ...something I'm not in favor of)
Likewise, the kids would need to believe that "any of this shit matters".
If you have a 15 year old kid who thinks that they are going to be dead or in prison by 21, a sudden, magical introduction of 1,2, and/or 3 isn't going to have much of an effect. The consequences really aren't going to matter.
If you have a bunch of kids who feel this way, in combination with the absence of 1, 2, and/or 3 .....and they also have very little else to do this afternoon:
You get situations like The Bodega Beatdown
....or situations like the somewhat recent murder on Franklin Ave. (not the most recent one, the -um- one before that):
Despite occuring in broad daylight, nobody said anything because they believed the potential consequences from the local criminal element (beatdown, murder, etc) to be far more likely and severe than those they would receive from the police or the community.
In otherwords, we have a situation in which some folks perceive the benefit of "being evil" or simply "not snitching on evil" to clearly outweigh the reasons "to be good". [edit: please read Homeowners post below, she describes the phenomena far more articulately, and her post does not count on the existence of spirits]
....all which goes to say, we already have "accountablity", but those holding folks accountable are the wrong ones. :shock: -
But if those in our society who are responsible for some of the socially disruptive behavior had a 'sense of shame', then they wouldn't need to be regulated by others. And that's what's lacking. Maybe public accountability would give them that.
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