Protesters on Wall Street. Capitalism quakes in fear?
Comments
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As if, under any circumstances, you would ever view them as credible?
Or how about media elites? You think they'd ever view anti Wall Street protesters as credible?
The answer to both is no.
The financial industries almost destroyed our economy, and not only were no real regulations put in place or penalties assessed, their wealth and power is as strong as ever.
As of today, more Wall Street protesters have been held accountable for their actions than the entire banking industry combined.
That strikes me as highly problematic.
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As if, under any circumstances, you would ever view them as credible?
Or how about media elites? You think they'd ever view anti Wall Street protesters as credible?
The answer to both is no.
The financial industries almost destroyed our economy, and not only were no real regulations put in place or penalties assessed, their wealth and power is as strong as ever.
As of today, more Wall Street protesters have been held accountable for their actions than the entire banking industry combined.
That strikes me as highly problematic.
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BG, I previously answered your questions in this thread, but this post seems particularly relevant:
whynot_31 said:
AW-
Sometimes there were implicit threats of violence as a result of hundreds of thousands of protesters showing up. The governments/industries (banksters?) were "proactive" in saving their own butts by realizing that they were going to keep showing up, and eventually they would not be peaceful....but both you and BG are correct in stating that the government/industries currently have no need to be proactive in this instance.
After a while, the protesters will simply go home. If they are lucky, many of them will eventually work in cubicles.
Even those who sympathize with them are free to laugh at their naivete.
It is hard for you to accept that neither government, nor the bankers are in charge.
...it is completely predictable that more protesters will be arrested than bankers or government officials. The protesters are perceived as having no power, and even mock-able.
P.S. I heard a news report saying that 80 were arrested today and yesterday, so I predict this spectacle will likely be over soon.
The vast majority of NYers will continue to search for intelligent ways to shape and adapt to our changing socio-political-cultural landscape.
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The problem lies in the fact that the demonstrators aren't there for any specific thing other than to generally "fuck shit up." Hence, what might be of value in the occupation, calling attention to the inordinate power wielded by feral banksters that knows no democratic "check and balance," has degraded into the totally predictable battle with the police. Now the discussion centers on police brutality (duh, it's the NYPD, what does one expect) and the reason for the demonstration is lost in the fog of legalistic rationalizations on both sides.
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Correct.
Depending upon which side you take, the police are now engaging in brutality OR the protesters are becoming defiant/frustrated/belligerent in the face of capitalism still standing.
Both outcomes were almost certainties.
While the truth of "what is happening in lower Manhattan" is probably in the middle of the two views, a lot of very sympathetic people are sitting this battle out on the sidelines.
Ours reasons may vary, but we believe that this has been a lose - lose proposition since the moment "Occupying Wall Street" was conceived as a idea.
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I read through the on-going reactions on this page and one feeling that has stayed with me throughout is AW's insistence that nothing changes from civil disobedience and/or non-violent protest.
I would urge you strongly to spend more time learning of the civil rights movement in regards to this. I think where this protest is lacking is the area that the volunteers who participated in the Freedom Rides excelled in. There needs to be more preparation on the part of the protesters before beginning. They need to learn to take criticism and aggression without responding in violence or even raised voices.
AW- I am glad to see the American Dream is working for some, and you are included in this. From what I have gathered, you purchased a home, and then others, becoming a landlord and so on. You might have more of a possibility of competing economically. These opportunities are not available in the ways you seem to think they are. How is anyone supposed to compete or change from the inside if they can't get hired to do anything? I would conclude that your naivety is just as strong as the protesters might be regards to what you believe is possible.
All this violence you think is the only way to change things. You want these people who can't get jobs, so get guns and shoot people? That simply removes them from society so that no one remains to say anything.
For what it's worth, I saw from the beginning of this thread the thought that everyone was going to be packing up and leaving any second. There are currently people arranging to set up OccupyChicago, OccupyDenver, etc.
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If you have a fast connection, watch this video by Al Jazeera. It presents a well thought out explanation of capitalism's present externalities, excesses, and recklessness. It is the first of a four part series.
http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/meltdown/2011/09/2011914105518615434.html
I think if the protesters had cast themselves as wanting more regulation and transparency (as opposed to whatever they are out there for and against), they would be better received, but such an approach would likely be dismissed as "mere tinkering", and anyone suggesting such an idea to the protesters would likely be dismissed as being an apologist who actually supports the capitalist machine.
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whynot_31 said:
I view it as another opportunity that I missed. I could have called in sick and sold Anarchy t-shirts.I keep Hearting you! Why_not :flower: I love your posts and replies! I agree with your above sentiment. I think that more effective "protests" are things like:
1) voter registration drives, to help get people to vote for candidates you like that will support causes you care about
2) donations to political parties and organizations that contribute or promote causes you care about. I personally contribute to :
Planned Parenthood Action
Planned Parenthood general
The Obama Campaign
Move-on
WNYC (the only decent news I think, although its not as great as it used to be)What we are going though is an ideological war. What we need are bodies to physically go where the fence sitters are located and try to convince them that certain officials are not acting in the self interest of the average citizen. I went out to Meadville in PA, to register voters during Obama's first campaign. Protesting in front of Wall street does nothing, but trying to have face to face discussions with swing voters who vote the people in who support the hegemony of Wall street and convincing them to vote for better policies and leaders DOES SOMETHING. Carrying a placard, around Wall street does nothing as wearing an Anarchy shirt also does nothing.
Ha ha Why_not
I think that contributing to organizations who will lobby and fund the campaigns of candidates that WILL support your beliefs does something.
We should all take lessons from the Koch brothers, Virginia Thomas, and Rupert Murdoch: money and lobbying for votes/candidates works.
The tea party exists because of the Koch brothers. -
I think the protesters need more clarity on a number of fronts even besides their hopes for a goal.
1) Is the point to camp out down there for a number of months, living peacefully and trying to befriend cops?
2) Is the point of obstruct traffic and work with civil disobedience sit-ins making life generally difficult?
3) Is the goal to raise just enough ruckus to get arrested but not enough to see actual jail time?
4) Is the goal to get as many protesters arrested as possible and get as much footage of the cops behaving badly as possible?I think all four are legit methods of protesting if you so choose. However, if you're going to pick one or two methods you should also prepare accordingly. If you're going to pick the first 2 there should be preparation in how to no react to aggression by anyone. They should also stick to the plan.
If the goal is the 3rd and 4th people need to be prepared for pepper spray and/or tear gas. Everyone should have goggles and a wet cloth to cover their mouths and noses.
There are other countries that excel in protesting to the degree it feels like a part time job. Methods should be learned from them.
My feeling is at least some of the violence on the part of the cops has been because this is happening right after London. They want to show the world that NYC will not become riotous.
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It's one thing to think the protesters are silly and sit at home watching it go by with a smirk. It disappoints me that there seem so many willing to openly mock people for standing up and saying something that they believe in. Yeah, it may not achieve anything, but I at least recognize the courage it takes to stand up for something, even if you later become jaded about exerting so much effort.
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Tate-
It is important to realize that one can mock their tactics and methods and their inability to articulate solutions and problems, YET agree with their perceptions that we are in a really bad period.The first video by Al Jazeera details the problems quite well, I guess I will have to wait for subsequent series to see if I agree with any of the "solutions" they may propose.
Psycho-ologist and I have similar approaches.
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Tate-
It is important to realize that one can mock their tactics and methods and their inability to articulate solutions and problems, YET agree with their perceptions that we are in a really bad period.The first video by Al Jazeera details the problems quite well, I guess I will have to wait for subsequent series to see if I agree with any of the "solutions" they may propose.
Psycho-ologist and I have similar approaches.
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tateinbk said:
It's one thing to think the protesters are silly and sit at home watching it go by with a smirk. It disappoints me that there seem so many willing to openly mock people for standing up and saying something that they believe in. Yeah, it may not achieve anything, but I at least recognize the courage it takes to stand up for something, even if you later become jaded about exerting so much effort.I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree. It just seems a little wrong headed and naive that none of these "protesters" had a single definable objective aside from "shutting down Wall street" I think courageousness comes from doing an action that is scary, but with a clear purpose objective and goal. What was the point of shutting down Wall street? What will that goal achieve other than leaving lots of average folks who are cogs in the system out of work, while the cops try to remove those who are blocking entrance to wall street work places.
If they achieve their goal even for a few hours, what does it ultimately accomplish? I refuse to believe politically aware people can take the time to plan and execute a protest without having a greater objective than "shutting down Wall street". To me, at best this speaks to recklessness and stupidity, at worse, this just smacks of attention seeking "activists" not truly interested in putting their money or time where it counts, but instead are just looking for ways to be seen as left liberals in a photo op.
Maybe I am just too cynical for my own good.
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I would personally love to now if any of these protester folks gave money to organizations fighting on the front lines in the halls of congress, in ad campaigns like Move-on, or in actual abortion clinics.
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It just seems a little wrong headed and naive that none of these "protesters" had a single definable objective aside from "shutting down Wall street"
I don't disagree with that. I think that is an incredibly dumb goal without further aims. Some of the reasons I had heard too were pushing for reform and attention to the fact that we shouldn't just let the behavior and elitism of wall street executives slip by.
I think the fact that we have different ideas if what this is about is a big glaring problem with what protesters have done.
I still stand by my saying people standing up for what they believe in is courageous. I have read one or two people suggest trying to cause a run on the banks. I would be inclined to slap those people up-side the head, but from what I've read so far, these seem to be the extreme minority.
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I would personally love to now if any of these protester folks gave money to organizations fighting on the front lines in the halls of congress, in ad campaigns like Move-on, or in actual abortion clinics.
Or NARAL. Or Emily's List.
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Mrs Whynot and I just jabbered about the problem.
I basically stated that I would only attend a rally with an intelligent, articulate leader and realistic goals.
She responded by stating that it is unreasonable for me to expect a bunch of neo-leftist, neo-hippie, angry, young revolutionaries to be able to select an articulate leader and goals from their membership, especially if there are Anarchists present.
I agreed.
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My naivete? lol I lived the poor life, I know what struggling is. I been hungry literally. I done anything for money that is legal
. I never had the cushion life most posters here have. How many of you guys grew up below the poverty line? Hell both my parents income combined for decades were below 20k. Both of them are not educated.
So we see the world differently. I just don't have romanticism most posters seem to have of the world.
I see this world as a finite world with limited choices and there is mostly hard choices. Don't have liquored up glasses.
I just see the real world, protest don't go anywhere till there is some blood spilled. The American revolution that everyone enjoys didn't come blood free. The civil rights movement didn't come blood free. Hell now we got a statue of MLK. He didn't die in his sleep, he die from a bullet. same goes for a lot of others during the civil rights movement.
You could sit around a camp fire all day long and sing brotherly love. The ones in charge just gonna keep drinking their coffee(insert what ever is expensive) or wine($$$) and enjoy themselves and not change a thing. Cause they are very threaten by singing and chanting.. they're quaking in their boots lol.
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My naivete? lol I lived the poor life, I know what struggling is. I been hungry literally. I done anything for money that is legal
. I never had the cushion life most posters here have.You are extremely comfortable tossing assumptions around and have zero idea of what kind of lives posters have on here. Shall we have a "when I was hungry" competition? Were your parents really more poor than mine? Does this kind of attitude do anything besides annoy and offend other people? I'm inclined to say no, I'm not going to have a poverty competition to try and prove who has a more realistic and reasonable point of view.
Just because you may have grown up poor doesn't mean you have to completely toss out all empathy. You seem to have emerged from poverty with a Screw 'Em All attitude.
...MLK. He didn't die in his sleep, he die from a bullet.
To me this says you think he did nothing for the Civil Rights Movement in life. To me this statement means you think he was only impactful upon dying. You can call me whatever kind of hippy you want, but that is insulting to MLK and the movement as a whole.
If, as you say, nothing can be accomplished without violence I ask you this: What issue, in this world would cause you to stand up and do something violent? Do you have any issues you feel strongly about supporting besides attempting to rile up posters on this site?
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Ok, so I guess you do just like to rile people up. Your points probably are made up too for better effect since you can't back anything up when pushed. I know I am not the first poster to remark on your lack of ability to follow through with a controversial point or argument when pressed.
To Why_Not and Psycho-ologist, I tend towards those methods as well. I'm not in a situation where I can give to NARAL what I would like, but, Psycho-ologist, if you ever hear of a situation where abortion clinic escorts are needed just let me know. I'll show up if I can. I'm not totally sure what the response would be to my belly there. I've also gotten far more aggressive since gestating so I'd probably end up yelling at all the people praying at me. I guess I could distract anti-abortion activists by walking in and out of a clinic.
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Tate, et al-
In my view, street protests without clear goals, time limits and leaders are almost always doomed by two factors:1. A minority of people who use the events as a reason to get into conflicts with the police or destroy property.
2. The police. The police know they will win any such conflict and "love to hate" protesters without clear goals or time limits, they then tire of "protest duty" around the 5th day and then poke at the protesters in a way which will speed up the protest's inevitable end.
Organized protests (such as those by NARAL and Move On) are different:
They have trained volunteers who serve as buffers between the police and the crowd.
They let the police know their intentions beforehand.
They get permits.
They also do not hesitate to pull someone out of the event who appears disorderly or intoxicated.
They provide restrooms.
They march, they yell, the leaders pontificate and then everyone goes home.
...they take this approach because they are in this for the long haul, and they are out to influence politicians and want "regular" people to join their cause.
They know that whatever their cause (housing, abortion rights, civil rights, etc), there is no way it is going to be accomplished over the course of an afternoon, or a week, or a month.
We didn't get in this "economic, wealth distribution mess" over the course a few weeks, and we are not going to get out of it in a few weeks. Actual progress often takes decades, and the protesters need to realize that they are going to need folks like myself, psycho-ologist, Tate, and (gasp) even AW if they are going to make real societal change.
Attn Wall Street Occupiers-
Please get a message, a plan, and an articulate, intelligent leader. Learn from the mistakes of the Battle of Seattle.
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I state my point, It's like talking to bg, same as you, why repeat same points over and over again? There would be no magic words to convince folks like yourselves. People generally made up their minds already.
I don't make up anything. All posted from real life experiences. Just keep the drunken glasses on world would be change with lovely words and no blood needed to be spilled.
No logical arguments is going to change that. Anyone who claims impartiality is just lying to themselves.
End of the day ancient aliens are used for special folks on the boards.
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I've been hungry too. I ate a bagel.
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I've been hungry too. I ate a bagel.
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I've been hungry too. I ate a bagel.
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I've been hungry too. I ate a bagel.
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armchair_warrior said:
I state my point, It's like talking to bg, same as you, why repeat same points over and over again? There would be no magic words to convince folks like yourselves. People generally made up their minds already.I don't make up anything. All posted from real life experiences. Just keep the drunken glasses on world would be change with lovely words and no blood needed to be spilled.
No logical arguments is going to change that. Anyone who claims impartiality is just lying to themselves.
End of the day ancient aliens are used for special folks on the boards.
You make ASSUMPTIONS based on your experiences.
However you are frequently opining about people that you have no first hand experience with whatsoever.
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whynot_31 said:
Mrs Whynot and I just jabbered about the problem.I basically stated that I would only attend a rally with an intelligent, articulate leader and realistic goals.
She responded by stating that it is unreasonable for me to expect a bunch of neo-leftist, neo-hippie, angry, young revolutionaries to be able to select an articulate leader and goals from their membership, especially if there are Anarchists present.
I agreed.
Sorry, are you guys arguing anarchists don't have articulate members or specific goals?
Do you personally know a single anarchist? Seems not.
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