Protesters on Wall Street. Capitalism quakes in fear?
Comments
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FYI Radiohead will perform at the occupation today, 4pm.
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Support from Radiohead and other entities may help "Occupy Wall Street" gets their acts together.
Partly as a result of the pepper spray incident, the protests have gotten some good media, and I expect them to grow over the weekend.
They are no longer considered anarchists, and some reputable law firms are giving them pro bono advice as to their rights to protest.
I hope the protesters who have been there since the beginning realize they can leave the site, go home and shower, and then return. ....it they achieve anything, I doubt it will because the same 200 people never left.
It is important for everyone working on fixing capitalism's present mess to have a long term focus. They should sit back, and figure out how to best go about this.
...for some of them, sleep on a comfy mattress and a few economics classes may help.
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The unions are also joining including the transit workers union, the postal workers union, and SEIU 1199 which include doormen, security guards, and maintenance people.
There is also a march planned that is sponsered by
... United NY, Strong Economy for All Coalition, Working Families Party, VOCAL-NY, Community Voices Heard, Alliance for Quality Education, New York Communities for Change, Coalition for the Homeless and Neighborhood Economic Development Advocacy Project (NEDAP)
Surly the above mentioned is enough to begin to take this seriously?
And of course, some will argue that it will be these groups and unions who will bring attention and focus to this movement. I aver that without the unfocused movements of the original Occupy Wall Street groups, the others would not have felt moved to join.
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/147017/unions-vote-unanimously-to-support-occupy-wall-street-whos-next/
http://www.buzzfeed.com/fjelstud/38000-nyc-transit-workers-to-join-occupy-wall-str
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-massive-union-just-voted-to-side-with-the-wall-street-protesters-2011-9 -
While these groups are tiny:
United NY, Strong Economy for All Coalition, Working Families Party, VOCAL-NY, Community Voices Heard, Alliance for Quality Education, New York Communities for Change, Coalition for the Homeless and Neighborhood Economic Development Advocacy Project (NEDAP)
I want to make sure decades of reputation they earned is not lost by "joining" the present efforts.
...and while the websites you mention are pretty marginal, I would love for the mainstream media to do thoughtful exposes on how Wall Street could be regulated and our tax structure changed.
...it is more than sad that I presently am forced to get my intelligent news from BBC, The Economist, NPR, and Al Jeezra.
(three of the four are from overseas!)
I would love for the disorganized people in this country to force the organized ones to act. ...maybe we will have enough power together to do something actually constructive. Please note: Those expecting us to establish utopia will continue to be sorely disappointed.
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I used those sites merely to confirm what I was saying about unions joining and to provide the link from where I got the quote. I was not saying you should trust them for any sort of business news.
Yes, the news outlets stink in this country with the exception of NPR. I'm pretty happy to have it. How many news channels wouldn't make you sad?
I'm still a little vague on what the media situation in our country has to do with the current protest on Wall street.
I want to make sure decades of efforts of the groups you mention are not lost.
I am understanding this to mean that you think these groups becoming involved in this protest will ruin their credibility. Am I correct? If so, you really really place a lot of power in the hands of the protesters, far more than you have admitted to so far in this exchange.
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Actually, I intended it to mean:
"These established groups have the experience and knowledge that the current protesters sorely need to craft a coherent message. I hope they are able to do so. I hope the current protesters can accept help"
If the established groups are not listened to, I have no doubt they will quickly leave.
Lately, the Occupy Wall Street folks seem to have talked more about the ugly effects of poverty and the declining economy, than reforming global finance.
In my opinion, Make the Road is one of the most effective anti-poverty groups in NYC, and I have heard they may try to help.
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Sorry man, this doesn't really apply here. NO ONE has ever protested anything this large before. We are talking world economy, big business; (america's involvement in) both world wars combined can't hold a candle to this.
FYI, I wager that Al and the like are in the pockets of the gov't. He himself is big business which is why he gets away with walking down wall St. These kids were stopped and arrested before they got there.
whynot_31 said:
For example Sharpton, Weingarten, Liu, Williams, et al have all made it a habit of protesting on Wall St pretty regularly over the last decade, and had future events planned before this effort. -
cremate wrote: Sorry man, this doesn't really apply here. NO ONE has ever protested anything this large before. We are talking world economy, big business; (america's involvement in) both world wars combined can't hold a candle to this.
Correct: Al and the folks pictured have do not attempt reforming anything as huge as global finance or "capitalism".
They are merely protesting ON Wall St; they are not protesting what Wall Street represents to the folks presently camping on it.
...If I had to sum up Al and Co., it would be that they have set their sites on taxing the wealthy so things like education can be better funded, and we can have some better anti-poverty programs. Even those opposed to their goals can see them as organized, thinking people.
However, there have been lots of dreamers in the US (and elsewhere) who have gotten together to protest only against the current reality, but not for anything that is actually achievable.
When John Lennon was alive, many almost worshiped him.
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This is just sad.
A hoaxer was able to convince members of Occupy Wall Street to joyously state the band Radio Head would perform.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/confusion-on-possible-surprise-radiohead-show-downtown/
They took the bait and now look even less credible.
How long will it be before a more destructive campaign is launched? For example, it should not take long for a group of six (6) college age John Birch Society members to figure out they could infiltrate the group this weekend.
They could then mix with the crowd, and be drunken pricks to the police on Sunday. The police would respond in kind. It would all be caught on video. The image of the protesters as "clueless but harmless" would be destroyed.
If they have an ability to learn, the folks in Occupy Wall Street will realize that leaderless consensus doesn't work, and get some help from established organizations ...quickly.
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That would certainly be a waste of time -- I'm sure there's more than a few pricks in the crowd already to whom it comes naturally without even having a drink.
Call me cynical, but this Occupy Wall Street gig sure is well-timed to coincide with Obama's efforts to incite people against bankers and corporate executives -- the traditional bogeymen of the Democratic party. Note that Democratic "greats" like Moore and Sarandon showed up to show their solidarity with the protesters' demands.
My guess is that this is a ploy to develop a counterweight to the Tea Party and attempt to galvanize the proponents of various left-wing causes, which the Democrats desperately need if they want more than a snowball's chance in hell of winning the elections next year. In which case you'll quickly see the "established organizations" take the reins assuming they're able to drum up enough support to bother overtly inserting themselves as the champions of the cause, which so far doesn't seem to be the case.
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All that you write could be true. I'd have no problem with it, no more problem with it than the Koch brothers funding the Tea Party.
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I don't have a problem with it, either. It's protected speech, whether it's cynically incited for political gain or not.
I likewise have no problem with police making arrests when protesters become disorderly.
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All politics is about political gain (i.e., achieving some desired end or raising an issue of importance for public debate), otherwise there would be no reason to be involved in politics. Assessing the motivations of any complex political movement is risky, and the tendency to oversimplify (as you have done) is understandable.
The question of police tactics is another matter. In this case, it is curious that the NYPD is tending to be more violent than the demonstrators. The particular use of kettling, which causes confusion and likely leads to unnecessary disorder, is ripe for criticism.
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witch-king said:
All politics is about political gain (i.e., achieving some desired end or raising an issue of importance for public debate), otherwise there would be no reason to be involved in politics.So what you're saying here is that all politics is about making gains in politics, otherwise there would be no reason to be involved in politics? I guess I can't disagree with that.
Assessing the motivations of any complex political movement is risky, and the tendency to oversimplify (as you have done) is understandable.
It's just a demonstration, not a "complex political movement." This isn't the next MoveOn.org, which primarily attracted people opposed to the war in Iraq. It's basically an umbrella event for all sorts of people with all sorts of different and often contradictory ideas who couldn't agree on a platform if they were paid to do it.
The one thing the left movements in this country have always been fantastic at doing is splitting into rivalrous factions after their first success.
The question of police tactics is another matter. In this case, it is curious that the NYPD is tending to be more violent than the demonstrators. The particular use of kettling, which causes confusion and likely leads to unnecessary disorder, is ripe for criticism.Do you have any evidence that kettling leads to unnecessary disorder? If not, I'll tend to presume the professionals (the police, in this case) know better than you.
In my own experience, kettling is certainly unsettling (hey, maybe the protesters can use that in a limerick) but effective at controlling crowds.
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Hey, hey, ho, ho, kettling has got to go?
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Hey, hey, ho, ho, kettling has got to go?
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Hey, hey, ho, ho, kettling has got to go?
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So do I have this right:
The police would rather shut down the Brooklyn Bridge to arrest people than shut down the Brooklyn Bridge to let people peacefully march across it?
Sometimes I have these moments where it is truly shocking to me what we as a city and nation accept from the police.
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It is the job of the police to enforce the law, and keep the city functioning.
Groups walk across the bridge all of the time, they either get a permit or stay on the pedestrian path.
In this video, the police clearly warn the protesters of the consequence of their actions. However, the group is so disorganized and motley that those in the front may not know about the warning.
While I feel for those who simply followed the rest onto the car lanes of the bridge, ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. In the end, those who occupied the bridge were only detained for about eight (8) hours and then received only violations, I've heard the bridge was only closed for about 3 hours.
I was impressed the police were able to handle that many arrests efficiently. The police did their jobs.
Slowly but surely, the court system will implement stricter penalties on those who consistently break the law. It might be a few months before they start leaving them in jail for a while. I'm ok with this, because it allows people time to decide whether they wish to modify their behavior.
Until then, the police will have to patiently throw them in jail, only to see them return to the protest a few hours later.
Hopefully, the protesters will apply for permits and the permits will be granted. Little steps like that would avoid all of this silliness.
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It is the job of the police to enforce the law, and keep the city functioning.
Groups walk across the bridge all of the time, they either get a permit or stay on the pedestrian path.
In this video, the police clearly warn the protesters of the consequence of their actions. However, the group is so disorganized and motley that those in the front may not know about the warning.
While I feel for those who simply followed the rest onto the car lanes of the bridge, ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. In the end, those who occupied the bridge were only detained for about eight (8) hours and then received only violations, I've heard the bridge was only closed for about 3 hours.
I was impressed the police were able to handle that many arrests efficiently. The police did their jobs.
Slowly but surely, the court system will implement stricter penalties on those who consistently break the law. It might be a few months before they start leaving them in jail for a while. I'm ok with this, because it allows people time to decide whether they wish to modify their behavior.
Until then, the police will have to patiently throw them in jail, only to see them return to the protest a few hours later.
Hopefully, the protesters will apply for permits and the permits will be granted. Little steps like that would avoid all of this silliness.
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That's neither here nor there on my question.
The bridge was getting shut down one way or the other.
The police chose to do it in order to arrest people - rather than so that people could protest peacefully.
Says a lot.
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The protesters could have walked across the pedestrian path peacefully. Most did so.
...groups walk across the pedestrian path with banners and matching t-shirts all of the time.
The police have no obligation to accommodate the protesters when they are breaking the law.
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Boygabriel said:
That's neither here nor there on my question.The bridge was getting shut down one way or the other.
The police chose to do it in order to arrest people - rather than so that people could protest peacefully.
Says a lot.
Damn right it says a lot -- that we have a society based on law and order.
If the precedent is to shut down the road to allow those who are breaking the law to continue to break it, rather than enforcing the law, what's to stop the bridge from being perpetually shut down for some protest or another?
This is why there is a permit system to begin with. And why there is a pedestrian walkway.
If you want to commit civil disobedience, be prepared to face the consequences of the law. You wanted attention, you've got it. It comes at a price.
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I often wonder the protesters appreciate structure and leadership.
For example, how would anything more complex than a pretzel stand function? How could this city of 8M people function without structure?
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eastbloc said:
Damn right it says a lot -- that we have a society based on law and order.If the precedent is to shut down the road to allow those who are breaking the law to continue to break it, rather than enforcing the law, what's to stop the bridge from being perpetually shut down for some protest or another?
OMG! peaceful public demonstrations! that would be the downfall of society!
This is why there is a permit system to begin with. And why there is a pedestrian walkway.
There are fundamental flaws in a system where you need a permit from the government to publicly protest.
In theory you would have to get a permit from the thing that you are protesting.
But hey, the NYPD and the city government would never collude to suppress public demonstrations and free speech right?
The RNC in 2004 was a mirage.
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whynot_31 said:
I often wonder the protesters appreciate structure and leadership.For example, how would anything more complex than a pretzel stand function? How could this city of 8M people function without structure?
It's not an either/or proposition and you're fully aware of that fact.
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I continue to believe this city is respecting their rights to "protest social inequality" or whatever it is they believe they are doing.
The owners of a private park have even (thus far) tolerated them being there at all hours. This park was basically an attractive amenity for the surrounding buildings, and their presence means it longer serves its intended purpose. But, I can't say I have ever used the park, so I don't miss it.
As the motley crew attracts more people, this event may provide entertainment for months to come. So far, this event is just a gain in my personal book.
However, I sort of hope a steady flow of them continue to get arrested. While their numbers will continue to increase with people who seem to believe "everything should be free and rules are bad", the fines may help the NYPD pay for all of the police coverage they are consuming.
...By watching people break the law and then wonder aloud why this happened, we all get a break from the depressing economic news.
You do know "free speech" has caveats, right? For example, you can't interfere with other people's rights.
I love it when people believe that others should be held accountable, but that they should not.
[I have a feeling we will have to provide the protesters on a primer about property rights soon].
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Boygabriel said:
OMG! peaceful public demonstrations! that would be the downfall of society!
This is why there is a permit system to begin with. And why there is a pedestrian walkway.
There are fundamental flaws in a system where you need a permit from the government to publicly protest.
You can peacefully protest all you want. It's blocking the roadway that isn't permitted.
Somehow I think if tomorrow the KKK and the next day the John Birch Society and the next day some other clown decided to shut down the bridge, many of the people expressing outrage at the police action on Saturday would be equally in favor of it. But the police can't enforce the law based on the political viability of those who intend to break it.
In theory you would have to get a permit from the thing that you are protesting.But hey, the NYPD and the city government would never collude to suppress public demonstrations and free speech right?
The RNC in 2004 was a mirage.
Now you're spinning conspiracy theories.
The RNC protests attracted over 800,000 people and consisted of a mix of permitted activities and civil disobedience. I know, because I was there.
The NYPD handled it with kid gloves. Of those 800,000, approximately 1800 arrests were made. And most of the charges were eventually dropped.
If there was collusion to suppress free speech on the part of city government and police, they did a really crappy job carrying it out.
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"What do we want?!
Something!
When do we want it?!
Whenever!""This what
democracydisorganized people look like!"The people,
uniteddisorganized will neverbe defeatedget anything done! -
eastbloc said:
If there was collusion to suppress free speech on the part of city government and police, they did a really crappy job carrying it out.
Oh they let people leave their apartments and walk around in public. And for that we are very thankful.
However the "Free Speech Zones" were right out of an authoritarian playbook.
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