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Crown Heights North=Carroll Gardens II? — Brooklynian

Crown Heights North=Carroll Gardens II?

ilovefranklinave
ilovefranklinave
edited November -1 in Crown Heights/Prospect Lefferts Gardens

From the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/29/realestate/so-youre-priced-out-now-what.html?pagewanted=all

My take:http://ilovefranklinave.blogspot.com/2012/01/crown-heights-carroll-gardens-part-ii.html

Short version: Interesting comparison, interesting that the Grey Lady is making it. I do think it speaks to the fact that CHN is no longer considered some sort of fragmental extension of Prospect Heights by the real estate crowd, but is starting to get some credit for its unique charms and history.

Thoughts?

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Comments

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    A lot of smart people purchased there in late 90s, and await cashing in their investments.

    I wish I had been one of them.

  • trumystic
    trumystic

    I think the NYT piece is crap. All the media on Prospect Heights ruined whatever character I loved about PH and I imagine the press and influx of annoying new people to CHN and who regard the Times as an authority will eventually do the same to this hood.

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    That's a lot of power to give to a newspaper that is barely making ends meet due to declining readership and web viewers.

    ...if we are going to pick an arbitrary point that the neighborhood "began" to change, let's pick 1995. Let's then find a Nurse who saved her earnings to buy a brownstone, fixed it up with her husband and was a neighborhood bedrock during violent times.

    She, like thousands of others, is able to enjoy rising (or at least stable) property values, while her perhaps less savvy, perhaps less privileged, perhaps less hard working, perhaps less educated, perhaps more discriminated against, perhaps less lucky neighbors have their rents raised to levels that cause them to move elsewhere.

    The Times is a minor player.

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    PS. This guy believed in the neighborhood so much, that a few years ago, he bought a house just off Franklin Ave and then put lots of his own money into it.

    http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/topic/great-expectations#post-750285

    Do you think he will get close to his asking price of $1.1M?

  • eastbloc
    eastbloc

    Let's not get carried away. He bought a house for a song ($250k or $275k if I recall correctly) and put just enough money into it that he'll walk away considerably richer even if it sells for a far more realistic price.

    Anyone who has $250k in cash and passes up a shell off Franklin Ave for that price is a moron. It doesn't take a whole lot of faith in the neighborhood to know you can't lose on that proposition.

    Now, if anyone _buys_ that place for anywhere _near_ ask, _that_ will be a definite sign of faith in the neighborhood :)

  • eastbloc
    eastbloc

    Trumystic said:

    I think the NYT piece is crap. All the media on Prospect Heights ruined whatever character I loved about PH and I imagine the press and influx of annoying new people to CHN and who regard the Times as an authority will eventually do the same to this hood.

    What do you regard as an authority?

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    eastbloc said:

    Let's not get carried away. He bought a house for a song ($250k or $275k if I recall correctly) and put just enough money into it that he'll walk away considerably richer even if it sells for a far more realistic price.

    Anyone who has $250k in cash and passes up a shell off Franklin Ave for that price is a moron. It doesn't take a whole lot of faith in the neighborhood to know you can't lose on that proposition.

    Now, if anyone _buys_ that place for anywhere _near_ ask, _that_ will be a definite sign of faith in the neighborhood :)

    Eastbloc-

    I must confess if I had about 1M to spend, I would not be looking at the house I linked above. ...I would be looking at this one on Dean, near Bedford: http://realestate.nytimes.com/sales/detail/253-NS120113512/1142-Dean-St-BROOKLYN-NY-11216

    original wood details and genuine architecture, make me drool.


  • eastbloc
    eastbloc

    You could probably have it for less than a million, considering it's been on the market for six months.

    That one might even qualify for a loan, and be quite affordable once you factor in the second unit's rent.

  • eastbloc
    eastbloc

    P.S. I suspect the problem with that house is that it's too close to the Armory -- if it was located closer to EP it wouldn't have much trouble selling.

  • armchair_warrior
    armchair_warrior

    CH is too big for gentrifiers to make a dent in it. speculators still can make money if they buy super cheap sell at normal prices.

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    Lots of new condos and rentals have been built or renovated over the last decade or so, and many have been purchased by residents who are young, and purchasing or renting their first "real" apartments.

    The question that remains to be seen, is whether lots of "new" people with substantial assets will be attracted to the large, well maintained homes that exist in CH North. ....those that are currently selling these homes certainly hope so.

    Note, these big homes are not purchased predominantly by the young. ...I believe those who buy these homes are not looking to flip them; they are looking to spend the rest of their lives in them.

  • ntfool
    ntfool

    This is true, from our perspective. Closing tomorrow on a brownstone in Bed-Stuy, have no intention of leaving anytime soon.

  • eastbloc
    eastbloc

    Congrats. We did the same a few years back and fully intend to live here forever.

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    Ditto.

  • ntfool
    ntfool

    Thanks! And now I'm broke.

  • eastbloc
    eastbloc

    You're not broke, you're house-poor. That's OK :)

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    Ntfool-

    You know you have to continue to post even though you moved, right?

  • eastbloc
    eastbloc

    The Times once again shows off their profoundly lazy journalism in an article on our 'hood:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/01/nyregion/in-crown-heights-a-renaissance-with-unease.html

    Sounds like they took the train to Franklin, got on the wait list at Barboncino, interviewed three people for the article, had dinner, and went home, satisfied with the completeness of their knowledge of Crown Heights.

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    The themes in the article are so familiar, she likely got her ideas from Brooklynian or I Love Franklin Avenue.

    While I'm glad the author finds these sites useful, to those of us that frequent these sites, the article merely reads like a summary of recent threads.

    By large measure, that it the purpose of the traditional media: Repackage what neighborhood busybodies know, into a format that is believed to be digestible to a larger audience.

    That is the job of the author, and she did it well.

    However, this is part of why I prefer my neighborhood news raw, and try to absorb news about neighborhoods that I am less familiar with, with similar suspicion.

    However, I did appreciate the quote:

    A corner grocery at Lincoln Place and Franklin where Ms. Williams shops, Bob and Betty’s, is now selling organic food, mostly to young newcomers, and giving away cardboard boxes to older residents moving out.

    The formula isn't complex:

    Neighborhood with declining crime

    + improving bars, restaurants, shopping

    + existing transportation

    + lots of rentals

    ____________________________________________________

    = newbies with money to spend will come in droves.

    Unfortunately, many newbies will then make the mistake (and implicit assumption) of publicly wondering "why didn't the people who lived before me want these things, and take care of their neighborhood?", and the old timers will seethe at the implicit insult.

    Sadly, many newbies fail to realize that even in the most troubled neighborhood's, most residents want better something better but have not had the power to exclude the negative elements.

    For the first time in a long time, this neighborhood now has that power. To the horror of those who have long wanted it, they will learn that this "new" power is very imprecise, and that no one actually controls it.

    ...and, as it always does, the beat will go on.

  • ilovefranklinave
    ilovefranklinave

    Here's my nitpicking take: http://ilovefranklinave.blogspot.com/2012/02/times-returns-franklin-back-in-news.html

    I thought the article was a decent summary (nothing whynot hasn't said a million times before, but hey, like he said, that's the biz), but I'm not sure using the riots as a frame made a ton of sense, except insofar as many of the NYT's readers only know of Crown Heights because of the riot. They also have a confusion juxtaposition of one riot photo from out near Utica with 8 photos from Franklin in their slideshow. Still, I don't think the riots are a major factor in what's happening now, or even in how locals (both new and old) think about what's happening now. To quote the great Kevin Phillip (as the NYT did): “I don’t think anybody really thinks about what happened here,” he said, referring to the riots. “It’s more what’s happening here.”

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    I think the prior article in the Real Estate section reached far more people who have a potential influence over the neighborhood's direction than today's piece.

    A Sunday Real Estate section is read by a different group than the Wednesday Metro section....

  • vaportrail
    vaportrail

    haha. If the white population changed from 4% of the total population in 2000 to 19% in 2010, that's not a 15% increase. The author needs to take remedial math (as well as the fact checkers employed at the grey lady).

  • booklaw
    booklaw

    It's closer to a 500% increase, right?

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    Brownstoner has a similar thread going and a commenter calculated the increase in white people to be around 358%, but who is counting? In many ways gentrification is just another word for Migration, which is pretty easily understood in terms of "Pushes and Pulls.

    While we can't expect an article to cover everything, the author also only focused on only on changes that are happening on and around Franklin Ave, when there are similar changes happening on Nostrand and eastward. Look closely, and you will see lots of black gentrifiers....

    Even more so than "Western CH", "Middle CH" has lovely, well cared for mansions on the streets around Nostrand. There are also well maintained rental apartments around New York Avenue.

    None of this is news developers or a flippers, that is where the real profits (and risks) are to be made. ...just look for the tell tale dumpsters on the streets.

    The real question is "How many people have been priced out of OTHER neighborhoods?"

    The answer to this question, coupled with things like how much violent crime we have this summer, will determine how much Western CH, and Middle CH changes in 2012.

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    Gothamist chimes in: http://gothamist.com/2012/02/01/crown_heights_gentrification_doesnt.php#photo-1

  • armchair_warrior
    armchair_warrior

    we'll see how it turns out in another 5 years. 10 years etc...

    As a long term investor. seems to be price in gentrification in many parts of CH. some prices of run down places cost almost much as PH run down places.

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    AW-

    I think a lot of young people are going to continue to have to rent apartments, as opposed to be willing/able to purchase them.

    So, think a strategy of buying run down tenements and then renovating them might be a safe bet.

    ....I'd also flip Single family brownstones, because a lot of the folks in their 50s are inheriting $ from their dying parents. Combined with the proceeds of a condo they bought in 1995, this inheritance is often enough for a brownstone.

  • armchair_warrior
    armchair_warrior

    :p i don't flip, i renovate and rent out :p. I put under use or not used at all houses back on the market.

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31

    I don't think I would have the patience to be a landlord in NYC; the laws are too pro tenant and Housing Court is too cumbersome.

    I'd flip, so I could take my profits and do progressively larger projects/buildings.

  • armchair_warrior
    armchair_warrior

    mines is really long term. But pain i the ass to borrow money with too many mortgages out vs income etc...

    really hard to convince banks to lend more.

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