The 2012 West Indian Day Parade
Comments
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Growing up, the day of the PR day Parade was a day to stay inside. '99 may have been the worst, but violence has plagued the parade. As reader pointed out, sexual assaults were high. The PR day parade has gotten increasingly better to the extent that I think last year there were no incidents. The organizers of the West Indian Day parade should really be having a lot of sit downs with the Puerto Rican Day parade. If it can be done with the latter, it stands to reason it should be possible with the WI parade.
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I stay home and not ride the trains on PR and DR days when i was younger wasn't safe for me. Gotten swing at many times for just being me.
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Tate-
It would be interesting to see if professionals in the field of criminology and crown control thought that changes the police and organizers made at the PR parade should get most of the credit for its decreased violence.Or, should the changing demographics (wealth, education, families) of New York's Puerto Ricans get most of the credit for the decreased violence?
If it is the latter (or some combination), do we have to wait until the demographics of those attending the parade changes?
We are allowed to do somethings to help these demographic shifts take place, right?
Can we figure out ways to make the parade itself AND the weekend parties, more attractive to families and less attractive to young men?
AW-
Yup. -
Making it less attractive to young men might require less booze, fewer drugs, and more conservative attire on the "spangly" young women.
But then, what would be the point of attending the parade?
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Or, for that matter, appearing in the parade.
I find it hard to believe that said women are wearing these outfits largely for the attention/eyes of the demographic I most closely fit.
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What about my other thought: Perhaps its the parade route?
Those others are in the city where as this is in CH.
If thats the case it could mean its not even the parade goers, drugs/alcohol, or those involved in the parade, but rather just the riff raff in the area. It seems like the uneducated and hopeless like to end others' fun.
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Cremate-
I like the idea, but caution that state fairs, amusement parks, and the city of Daytona Fl have shown to me that some of the "uneducated and hopeless" will travel to attend such events....but agree that the distant events seem less violent, and more under control.
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cremate said:
I'm just mad because it would be a fun time, but its ruined by senseless violence.On the other hand, I know some folks that have been going there for years and have had no problem. I think they are the type that arrives early and leaves early, though.
Agree! You've got to get on and off that parade route by 2pm, at the latest.
I don't know what the parade/violence connection is, but it *is* there. It's fine to say don't blame the parade, but...
If, as children, my sister and I fought constantly over a toy, then that toy was pretty soon taken away from us. The fighting wasn't the toy's fault, but the toy was certainly a catalyst for the fighting. That's a very simplistic explanation of how I feel about the parade. It's not the parade's fault, but like it or not, it is a catalyst for violence.
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Here's a question: is New Orleans's Mardi Gras statistically safter than the parade? I don't hear about people being killed at Mardi Gras (though I will admit that I don't particularly follow news of NOLA,) and I suspect that it would be a tourism/PR nightmare for the city if shootings around the carnival events started being regular occurrences during Mardi Gras.
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I think it dangerous to link the world 'culture' with activities universally agreed to be criminal. The only way Cremate's argument makes any sense is if he is saying drugs, alcohol and the violence that often accompanies it, is an AMERICAN problem, but I fear the worst here. I believe he is saying that it is a Black problem ~at worst, and at best a class problem.
Methinks that none of us have answers to these questions, and at best we can only exercise a calculus to best answer these questions by getting one of those Freakonomics guys to crunch the numbers and use the variables to best construct a context which wil create the strongest deterrent for crime.
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Despite what Criminologists and Freakonomics guys may state, I think we have to be able to figure out this problem thru a process of listening to their ideas, but then largely depending upon trial and error.
However, no one (police, politicans, parade organizers, etc) seems willing to attempt an experiment as a result of the backlash that would occur.
Above, I made a somber prediction of how I thought this years parade would go in terms of violence. Does any one else dare make a prediction?
P.S. this week's mass killing in Colorado has made this conversation look almost petty.
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Regarding the comparisons to the St. Patrick's Day parade, I'm pretty sure the WI Parade attracts more people. Also, many of them are tourists - just because they are not white does not mean they live in NYC.
My chief concern is that NY's finest get their fair share of gyrating beauties, as captured on video last year. That's the only day of the year I wish I was a cop.
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I hear you, Jack.
...but I also think the parade organizers may be exaggerating the number number of people who attend the events, and the economic impact. $300 million? 4 million people?
Don't get me wrong, it is the job of such organizations to present the best side of their events, and perhaps exaggerate a little in the process. ....but I suspect the numbers get thrown around by some in an attempt to state, "The West Indian Day carnival is great for the city, and loved by the 99.999% of the people who don't experience violence."
I mean if 4M people attend, you could have 40 people shot and the (if shooting were a random occurrence) the odds would be something like 0.00001. Beings that such shootings are really only random when the shooter is a bad shot, or is out to slaughter random people, the odds are even lower.
Now in its 45th year this annual event continues to draw mega-crowds from all over the world. It brings in a conservative estimate of over $300 million to New York City’s coffers. This is remarkable because the organization that puts on this spectacular shindig, the West Indian American Day Carnival Association (WIADCA), is a non-profit entity dedicated to promoting and preserving the culture of the Caribbean Diaspora in New York.
In fact, the annual Carnival Festival is now the largest outdoor Summer event in North America drawing over 4 million people to the 3-mile strip along Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn. But the Festival starts a week before this event with daily and nightly events at the grounds of the Brooklyn Museum. So come join us AUGUST 30 to SEPTEMBER 3RD and Experience A TASTE OF THE CARIBBEAN in New York!!
http://wiadcacarnival.org/3d/images/docs/wiadcapresskit2012.pdf
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I'd like to see the source for the four million number. It certainly FEELS like four million people, but I doubt it's more than a few hundred thousand. Still--that's an impressive number, and based on the number of out-of-state plates I see during and around Carnival time, it's obvious that a lot of people travel to be here.
For me, it's all about the street food, and if WIADCA did a culinary tour of Crown Heights and Flatbush as some kind of fundraiser I would be all over that. All. Over.
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whynot_31 said:
Or, for that matter, appearing in the parade.I find it hard to believe that said women are wearing these outfits largely for the attention/eyes of the demographic I most closely fit.
You don't know a lot of West Indian women do you?
Unless they are Jamaican, they will sample the rainbow of meat, before they marry. Should you ever be single or interested,......pssst... Trini women....Just Saying -
This article, written about how the organizers of the parade seem overwhelmed by its success, was published in 1998.
To me, it still rings true.
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The Psycho-ologist said:
You don't know a lot of West Indian women do you?
Unless they are Jamaican, they will sample the rainbow of meat, before they marry. Should you ever be single or interested,......pssst... Trini women....Just SayingI'd like to think I can use your advice in my next life.
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I meant culture in the traditional sense. People from the west indies that live in a certain way, and have particular customs (MHA that means whether white, black, or brown). I was asking if that specific culture could breed violence for some reason. Then I offered the counter point of the PR parade not having the similar violence (anymore at least) meanwhile they are at least geographically similar.
While I have MHA's attention, maybe he could answer this one for me (albeit slightly off topic). Why do some folks come to the US from the west indies to escape cartel/gov't violence, persecution, poverty, etc... and then protest and condemn the cops when they shoot some criminal that happens to be of their hue (as whynot puts it)?
That question just came to me while watching the news recently, but I guess i can't expect a rational explanation to irrational behavior.
MHA said:
I think it dangerous to link the world 'culture' with activities universally agreed to be criminal. The only way Cremate's argument makes any sense is if he is saying drugs, alcohol and the violence that often accompanies it, is an AMERICAN problem, but I fear the worst here. I believe he is saying that it is a Black problem ~at worst, and at best a class problem.Methinks that none of us have answers to these questions, and at best we can only exercise a calculus to best answer these questions by getting one of those Freakonomics guys to crunch the numbers and use the variables to best construct a context which wil create the strongest deterrent for crime.
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I think Jack is ok with being a cop for a day, and having said day be several years ago as opposed to merely last year.
Does this mean that last year was worse than we already believed?
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BKChickie said:
Here's a question: is New Orleans's Mardi Gras statistically safter than the parade? I don't hear about people being killed at Mardi Gras (though I will admit that I don't particularly follow news of NOLA,) and I suspect that it would be a tourism/PR nightmare for the city if shootings around the carnival events started being regular occurrences during Mardi Gras.People are killed DURING Mardi Gras just like people are killed DURING these events in Brooklyn. That doesn't mean people are killed AT these events. IRC, no one was killed AT the parade last year or the year prior, but people were certainly shot/and or killed during the festivities at events not affiliated with the organization putting together these events.
It's really sad that people cannot make a distinction between the two like Arm Chair did. I almost feel like some people will attribute this to ALL black people and their dealing just because they're socialized to.
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Too bad there isn't a Sim version of West Indian Day Parade where you can play mayor/borough president/police commissioner and test various scenarios and see what happens without risking anyone's actual safety. I used to love those games growing up and seeing what happened when you tweaked small things within the metropolis.
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A Sim version that reliably showed how crowds would react to various scenarios would be awesome. [sadly, pure whimsy]
A twisted part of me also wonders what would happen if there was a competing event; one which drew away the young men who think bringing a gun or a knife to a parade is a good idea. [also pure whimsy]
On a more serious note:
What if we kept the parade on EP, but made it earlier in the day?
Would having the parade occur between 9 AM and Noon make it less likely to be associated (fairly or not) with violence?
What if we did something counter intuitive, like spread the event out? Immediately after the parade, we could have three free events, capable of hosting 500k people each, in 3 different locations.
By doing these events AT ONCE (instead of one massive event of 2M on EP), could each event become specialized?
For example, following the parade on EP:
1. Food Festival 1 - 4 PM Commodore Perry Park.
2. Concert #1, 1-4 Wingate park
3. Concert #2, 1-4 Floyd Bennett Field...while none of the events would be the massive party that the parade day has become, we could all choose a free event that most met our preference.
Because everyone loves sparkly women and jerk chicken, they'd be featured at each event....
whimsy?
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How about, this little group make a list of all of the empirical factors that create 'tipping points' where violence then occurs?
Here is my theory: That, for the parameter of time that these festivities occur, it possesses the characteristics of a storm; that, in the same way thunder and lightning are emitted at intervals depending upon the presence of certain ELEMENTS, in this case violence is emitted.Instead of us judging the event NORMATIVELY, let us make attempt to observe it CLINICALLY, and try to come up with theory that will enable the event to occur peaceably.
Here are some elements that I think create the problem:
Decibel level of music
Alcohol consumption
Weather (temperature)
Vendor locations
Crowd volume
Sanitation -
I assume that the weekend's sanctioned and unsanctioned events will be largely the same as prior years.
While the police will do their best to confiscate handguns and stop crime as it occurs, should we put devices around the area this year to measure factors (such as decibel level of music,
Alcohol consumption, temperature, Vendor locations, Crowd volume, and Sanitation) , then (after the fact) compare this data to the location of the violent incidents?Can I also suggest putting bracelets on individuals presently on parole or probation, and/or whom have had more than 5 prior arrests?
Will their presence be more of a factor than Decibel level of music, Alcohol consumption, temperature, Vendor locations,
Crowd volume, and Sanitation?...after all, I attend the parade almost every year and have yet to be violent at the event.
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Here is what I am thinking Whynot:
This event is 'choreographed', and 'planned' by a committee every year. I think that the collateral crime, pollution and incessant noise that occurs every year impinge upon the quality of life -- and it should be addressed. I don't know what the process is that leads to this event occurring. Does the committee that plans it have to meet with members of the community boards to approve the event occurring? When they fill out a parade permit is there a list of events that they say will happen? Is there an insurance waiver of some sort? I don't see how the parade differs from, say a concert, which I assume impels concert promoters to have some level of duty -- some level of awareness to prevent negligence; some duty of responsibility to the concert-goers. Similarly, it stands to reason that the committee planning and choreographing this event have a similar duty, and there is ample literature and opinion advocating that they are in breach of that duty.
I'm surprised that someone has not sued the city already (maybe the have) to prevent the parade from occurring until the parade organizers can prove they are providing some level of safety and hygiene.
For instance, why is it that there are no sanitation workers who are constantly sweeping up garbage at this event? Why are there no security officers --other than the police at this event? Why are there no first aid facilities at this event? Why are there no water stations or cooling stations at this event? There are so many people who attend, and so little service to protect people in the event of some mishap or misfortune befalling them.
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All good points.
...However, I suspect that the sanctioned events that occur behind the museum are actually subject to all those requirements. As a result of having to impose these "controls", they:
-impose an admission fee
-seem to attract a different crowd
-to my knowledge, are consistently free from violence.
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... I'm not clear what your point is here. Are you implying something about the events on Eastern Parkway? I'm referring to what occurs on the parkway.
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MHA, the parade like other parades in NYC must reimburse the city for some portion of the costs related to security (police) and cleanup (sanitation). How those two things are accomplished then become 100% the determination of NYC. The organizers could (and should) supplement what the city is doing with it's own event staff, but I don't ever see evidence that they have worker bee type staff as contrasted with the queen bee board member types that are all wearing sashes on the viewing stand at parade time.
Everything else you talk about (first aid facilities,water stations or cooling stations) is the responsibility for the planning committee and could, and should be accomplished by them, IF they had the bodies to do it. I would estimate for a parade this size they would need 200-300 volunteers at the actual event, plus another 100-150 that cover things like J'Overt etc.
Part of that may be cultural in that I've never seen a West Indian Carnival that actually had those type of amenities. In the islands, you dance til you drop and the entire community comes out in support. Cleaning and policing aren't really necessary because there isn't the level of knuckleheadedness that is apparent on the Parkway sometimes, and the locals all chip in to do their part once the event is over to get everything cleaned up and back to normal.
I also don't get the impression that there is a lot of cooperative discussion between either the police or the community boards and parade organizers. I said last year that this parade would benefit from better coordination and planning, especially around these issues that they should control. They need more leadership in these areas. One suggestion would be that any participating group must provide a crew of 5-10 to assist in the working of the parade. Those folks could become event staff and that would create a group of bodies that could then be used to handle things like sanitation and assist the police with crowd control.
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