prospect park is not the tour de France
Comments
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Sorry - above post was mine.
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Anonymous wrote:
Riding and training are two separate issues. Obviously bikes are one of the many users of the park. If they must "train" then the park should set aside time in the early a.m. for them to ride at that aggressive speed in a large pack or else they should go to a bike training facility or go out to the country roads. They should not dominate the park road and bully old people, children, people crossing the road with toddlers during peak park usage times. Their "designated lane" is the entire road leaving a narrow lane for walkers and joggers in a heavily used park. I am sure this is one of those issues Bill DiBlasio would jump all over and all I am saying is if it happens again to me, I will make sure someone cracks down on them. If I were in the wrong (such as meandering in the road or walking really slowly or whatever, I wouldn't have brought it up) but I think I am allowed to cross the road and they came flying up over the hill before I got to the other side.
BTW, if you feel that a cyclist should not be allowed to train in a public park in their designated lane, where would you have them ride? -
Anonymous wrote: Please also keep in mind that while cyclists do not own the park and we need to police ourselves, *everyone* should use it responsibly. Those who walk their dogs off the leash, walk in the main road rather than in the joggers' lane, cross without looking, etc are guilty of creating an unsafe situation, yet no one ever criticizes them for endangering riders who are using the park safely and within the rules.
I both run and bike in the park, and I think you're making a strawman argument. There was a thread here just recently about places to run in the park where people criticized oblivious pedestrians who get in the way of bikers (and runners, and horses). I bet most people here would agree that the situations you describe above are unsafe and unreasonable.
BTW, if you feel that a cyclist should not be allowed to train in a public park in their designated lane, where would you have them ride?
However, Kmom's original post was not claiming the right to have a leisurely stroll in the car/cyclist lanes. It was about crossing the friggin' road. I sympathize with cyclists' need to have a place to train, but it's a crowded city. If you're going so fast that someone cannot safely cross the road at a normal pace even after looking both ways, fair or not, you are simply going too fast for safety. To turn your question on you, where would you have pedestrians cross the road? (Crosswalks, right? Because bikes always stop for those!)
I wonder if part of the problem is the width of some of the packs. Would it be easier to maneuver around pedestrians crossing the road if training cyclists went single file, rather than two and three abreast?
Or what about trying to arrange group training times, so that you could have a lead car or bike warning pedestrians, like they do at races? -
above post was me. must be contagious.
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i have had it with the aggressive prospect park cyclists. i imagine these are the same people who drive Ford Explorers & H2s and run down bikers and pedestrians on the streets.
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Buy a $20 singlespeed beater and pass them on the uphills. They hate that. :idea:
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how bout speed bumps for bikes?
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Subject: bikes in the park
This thread got picked up over at Gowanus Lounge http://gowanuslounge.blogspot.com/2006/06/prospect-park-suffering-biped.html and at the Brooklyn Record www.brooklynrecord.com. -
Subject: Bikers
Hey, this aint BNreaking Away. Dumb-fuck bikers need to get a grip and realize they are not gonna win their daddies' approval by biking real fast in those tight, shiny, gay outfits.
Slow down you dumb fucks and take a sip from your streamlined water bottles you flywheel jackasses. :roll: -
Subject: Re: Bikers
Lucky Luciano wrote: Hey, this aint BNreaking Away. Dumb-fuck bikers need to get a grip and realize they are not gonna win their daddies' approval by biking real fast in those tight, shiny, gay outfits.
isnt it a bit harsh?
Slow down you dumb fucks and take a sip from your streamlined water bottles you flywheel jackasses. :roll: -
armchair_warrior wrote: [quote=quijibo]weekend bicyclists are the worst
i was thinking of a scrape knee or something, face dive seems harsh
expect to see them every sunny weekend and avoid them
don't worry, they'll soon find a slippery patch of gravel
while they're going too fast downhill, and take a face dive
it's karmic
.
the punishment will fit the crime
not just the crime being commited now but also
the accumulation of previous crimes
the karmic boomerant would be equal to the sum of the crimes commited
some will get a scraped knee
and some will take a face dive -
quijibo wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior][quote=quijibo]weekend bicyclists are the worst
i was thinking of a scrape knee or something, face dive seems harsh
expect to see them every sunny weekend and avoid them
don't worry, they'll soon find a slippery patch of gravel
while they're going too fast downhill, and take a face dive
it's karmic.
the punishment will fit the crime
not just the crime being commited now but also
the accumulation of previous crimes
the karmic boomerant would be equal to the sum of the crimes commited
some will get a scraped knee
and some will take a face dive
ah !!!!now it all makes sense. -
Subject: Re: Bikers
armchair_warrior wrote: [quote=Lucky Luciano]Hey, this aint BNreaking Away. Dumb-fuck bikers need to get a grip and realize they are not gonna win their daddies' approval by biking real fast in those tight, shiny, gay outfits.
isnt it a bit harsh?
Slow down you dumb fucks and take a sip from your streamlined water bottles you flywheel jackasses. :roll:
I think it's hilarious. Funniest thing I've read all week. -
Weighing in on this "Who's worse?" debate from a jogger's perspective... bikers are definitely very aggressive and do need to remember that they're in a public park and they are basically on moving vehicles and could seriously hurt people, and themselves.
That being said, I vote pedestrians as "worse" in general. The blissful lack of awareness so many of them show is shocking, and they often take up the pedestrian, biking, and car lanes. Nearly every weekend I see unattended toddlers wandering in car lanes, groups of peds that take up half the street, and people who in general just change directions, cross, run out into the street, etc., all without the slightest glance. I mean, I'm not Carl Lewis, and even I nearly run into people at times, b/c so many peds seem to be absolutely oblivious of the fact that they're sharing the road. I personally have never had a negative experience with a bicyclist on the other hand--I'm careful whenever I cross and in general they seem to watch out as well. -
I was in Central Park the other day... two things -
1) I overheard competitive bikers/skaters talking about how PP was the place to go to train.
2) There were trains of bikers bookin' down the road but I still managed to cross without incident and while walking at a normal pace. Unless visibility is less than ideal (curves/corners/rises in the road) I don't see how anyone could not see them coming and make it across safely.
After re-reading the original post, I think that kmom should have been a little more careful in choosing a place to cross -kensingtonmom wrote: When I got to the center a pack of bicyclists came up over the hill...
(my bold).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they (bikers) have more right to the road than the peds, but use some better judgement - walk to a place where you can see a 100 yards down the road. You KNOW that people ride really fast in the park; to cross where there's poor visibility is knowingly putting yourself (and the kids!) in danger and it's in poor taste to later complain about a situation that was brought on by your own lack of judgement. -
The roads in Prospect Park should be used primarily by those who want to move quickly - bikers, joggers, etc.
The roads should NOT be used by people who wish to meander. That's what the dozens of other pathways - that are NOT well-paved enough to be suitable for bikes of joggers - are for...
This does not, of course, address the need for crossing the road to get to the paths or other parts of the park. But I agree with the majority of the posters - be quick about it, and expect fast moving bikes or runners coming at you from the left!! -
The thing is alot of the pack bikers ridet faster than the 15mph limit. I see nothing wrong with that myself during off-peak hours but not when you have a hafty amount of pedestrians, especially ones with kids who tend to stray or ones that are learning how to ride bikes themselves on training wheels and have no sense of direction. As far meandaring goes, it's a pedestrian right of way world/law ( I don't mean people who bolt out of nowhere and play chicken with bikers). As much as pedestrians need to watch where they're going it is a vehicle owners responsibility to keep a keener eye out. I wonder what the outcry would be if the police ticketed bikers for speeding or reckless driving.
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Idlewild wrote: The thing is alot of the pack bikers ridet faster than the 15mph limit. I see nothing wrong with that myself during off-peak hours but not when you have a hafty amount of pedestrians, especially ones with kids who tend to stray or ones that are learning how to ride bikes themselves on training wheels and have no sense of direction. As far meandaring goes, it's a pedestrian right of way world/law ( I don't mean people who bolt out of nowhere and play chicken with bikers). As much as pedestrians need to watch where they're going it is a vehicle owners responsibility to keep a keener eye out. I wonder what the outcry would be if the police ticketed bikers for speeding or reckless driving.
Actually, I would have no problem with a ticket blitz on bikers. A lot of bikers are very reckless in New York, speeding in Prospect Park, riding on the sidewalks, blowing lights (at busy intersections), and my personal fave biking on the pedestrian side of the Manhattan Bridge. If the biker's are going to be so outspoken in their pro-bike demands (most of which I support) they need to not be so hypocritical by emulating the worst behaviors of automobile drivers. -
Idlewild wrote: . I wonder what the outcry would be if the police ticketed bikers for speeding or reckless driving.
probably about the same as if they enforced jay walking laws or the 25 mph speed limit for motor vehicles on city streets. (Wanna guess how many people are killed or injured by 2000 pound motor vehicles vs 20 pound bikes?) Here's an idea - look first. (BTW, if you search my posts on an earlier thread here, I criticized riders who ride on the sidewalk, and earlier in this thread (and on cycling message boards) clearly stated that there's no need for the foul language that was used.
no - cyclists don't always obey speed limits, and pedestrians don't always use the crosswalk. That doesn't mean that some poor mom with a baby carriage can't get across the road. At the top of the hill, there is ONE LANE to cross and cyclists are moving relatively slowly (gravity and all), so it seems like a stretch to believe that even the slowest pedestrian can't make it across if they wait until the coast is clear. (go out and time it if you disagree - I did. The fastest cyclists take far longer from the time they come into view at Grand Army Plaza to the time they reach you than it takes the slowest pedestrian to cross.) If cyclists/cars/invaders from mars are coming, wait a few seconds and cross behind them. the parks department and police vehicles in the park move much faster (especially at the top of the hill where the transgression that started this thread is said to have happened) and can do me much more harm than the riders, yet somehow we manage to avoid them. And if we want to figure out how to share the park, rather than suggesting a ban or threatening to call some big bad city councilman as Kensington Mom has (can you hear the cycling community quaking in their cleated shoes?), let's come up with something more practical than "tell them to ride in designated cycling areas" or "country roads" - neither of which exist in NYC. Calling for such action because some riders are boorish or because you occasionally have to wait a few seconds before crossing the road is like suggesting that baby carriages not be allowed in the park because some parents behave irresponsibly and stray into the wrong lane, thus endangering riders who are obeying all traffic laws (as well as their own children.)
Why not sit in on the Prospect Park Alliance meetings and discuss practical ways that all parties can make the park safer? Why not help the Parks Department distribute their literature on who's supposed to be in which lanes when, so that we can all make nice and share? There's enough blame to go around, that we don't need hyperbole or nastiness such as that displayed by Lucky (that's it LL - the cyclists in the "gay" outfits are the ones with issues and trying to impress thier daddies - not you for noticing or making homophobic remarks) and Quijibo (yes - rooting for a rider taking a face plant is great for your karma.) -
How about if bikers or anyone else on wheels learn to take it easy and be more vigilant when there are a crop of people in the park? How about pedestrians not bolting out in front of people on wheels? Why does one need to attend meetings or time things when you can use common sense? Myself, biking in the park for a few years now I can definately say that there are cyclists and packs who can trek up that hill at a very decent rate. Which I get very pissed about not because they're going fast per say but because they are in great condition to go up that hill and not break a sweat.
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I'm a cyclist who rides in the park and a father who also walks in the park with my children. when I'm pushing my double stroller I never have trouble avoiding cyclists. For my and my kids safety I stay in the pedestrian lane thereby avoiding bikes, cars and bladers. It just takes common sense for us all to get along. Cyclists are going to go fast on the park road because the park is one of the few places in NYC where we can train without getting hit by traffic. There is a small, but active bike racing subculture that many of the park pedestrians know little about - many of those 'overdressed' bikers are former olympic medalists, national champions and former or current professional racers. The current #1 collegiate bike racer came from Park Slope and trained for years in the park. The 'next' Lance Armstrong, an american racer that will be contending the Tour de France this year named George Hincapie, used to ride and train in the park, so yes, it is a training ground for the future Tour de France contenders. There are, of course some bad apples, but there are those in every sport and hobby.
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EasternPkwy wrote: The roads in Prospect Park should be used primarily by those who want to move quickly - bikers, joggers, etc.
The roads should NOT be used by people who wish to meander. That's what the dozens of other pathways - that are NOT well-paved enough to be suitable for bikes of joggers - are for...
Well, I don't know about that. Sometimes the road is going where you want to go. I'm not sure walkers should be required to stay off the road! Also, many of the paths in the park have steps, which is a problem if you're pushing a stroller or have trouble with steps for whatever reason. And the idea that all problems could be avoided by crossing at the crosswalks is just plain wrong because the cyclists pay no attention whatsoever to the traffic signals in the park (and outside it for the most part).
I have some sympathy for cyclists wanting to "train" but it's not reasonable for them to train at high speeds at times when the park is crowded. -
Subject: have some perspective people
Cyclists train in Prospect Park because it's one of the few (relatively) safe places to do so. (Safe, until you try to follow the lights out onto Grand Army Plaza in the morning and someone in an SUV cuts into the lane inches away from you (that one post about fast bikers being the same guys who drive H2s is so off the mark it's not funny).) For every story you've got about someone on a bike being a jerk (and I've got 'em too), I've got two more about someone in a car almost killing me. Look, the short version is that there's competition for a limited amount of space and resources in this city and the joggers in the bike lane in the morning and the bikers blowing by pedestrians in the crosswalk whenever and whoever else uses the park need to be acknowledge everyone else's right to use the space and not act like they're the only ones out there. And please, give up the revenge fantasy stuff. That's just sick. -
No offense, but New York City seems like a pretty poor place to live if cycling is a career. I mean, we seem to be hearing that a crowded 3.5 mile loop with one mild hill is the best place to train...whatever the "next" Lance Armstrong might be up to, I'm pretty sure the previous one wasn't bombing around PP all day.
And if cycling isn't a career, then stop taking your spins around the park so damn seriously. Slow down, settle down, and for the sake of my eyeballs cut the comedy with those costumes. -
Well. personally as a someone who bikes I think NYC is crazy for not setting up a "bike only" park in each of the five boroughs. They can charge a bike tax and/or entrance fee. Roadies, Mountain bikers and casuals could use them. One place in mind for Brooklyn would be idustrial park areas by the waterfronts or even Floyd Bennet or the former dumps by Starret. Just an idea.
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Idlewild wrote: Well. personally as a someone who bikes I think NYC is crazy for not setting up a "bike only" park in each of the five boroughs. They can charge a bike tax and/or entrance fee. Roadies, Mountain bikers and casuals could use them. One place in mind for Brooklyn would be idustrial park areas by the waterfronts or even Floyd Bennet or the former dumps by Starret. Just an idea.
That's a lot of public money and space for a relatively small group of people. I demand a pogo stick only park! -
And as for all the jokes about cycling clothes - those 'outfits' are not for fashion, they're technicalwear - entirely necessary for long hours and miles on a bicycle - the lycra dissipates sweat and makes the rider more aerodynamic, and the 'pants' have pads in them so you don't get saddle sores. the cycling outfits are worn for cycling - not for purposely exposing penises or other body parts. If serious cyclists wore t-shirts and shorts they'd not last an hour before becoming a mass of cold, sweaty, painful mush. cyclists also shave their legs for aerodyamics as well as ease of recovery when a cyclist falls and scrapes the skin off their bodies, which tends to happen when one is cutt off or sideswiped by a car or some idiot parent lets their toddler wander aound the middle of the road at the bottom of the hill and the cyclist swerves and crashes to avoid him (I still have scars from that one). Also, many of those cyclists are riding bikes upwards of $8,000. Cycling (racing), believe it or not, is one of the most difficult sports you can engage in - so please cut the guys in the outfits some slack and remeber the road is a road - not a place to wander around unaware of what's coming down that road.
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Carnivore wrote: I demand a pogo stick only park!
That's just asking for a crude joke... :twisted: -
Anonymous wrote: And as for all the jokes about cycling clothes - those 'outfits' are not for fashion, they're technicalwear - entirely necessary for long hours and miles on a bicycle - the lycra dissipates sweat and makes the rider more aerodynamic, and the 'pants' have pads in them so you don't get saddle sores. the cycling outfits are worn for cycling - not for purposely exposing penises or other body parts. If serious cyclists wore t-shirts and shorts they'd not last an hour before becoming a mass of cold, sweaty, painful mush. cyclists also shave their legs for aerodyamics as well as ease of recovery when a cyclist falls and scrapes the skin off their bodies, which tends to happen when one is cutt off or sideswiped by a car or some idiot parent lets their toddler wander aound the middle of the road at the bottom of the hill and the cyclist swerves and crashes to avoid him (I still have scars from that one). Also, many of those cyclists are riding bikes upwards of $8,000. Cycling (racing), believe it or not, is one of the most difficult sports you can engage in - so please cut the guys in the outfits some slack and remeber the road is a road - not a place to wander around unaware of what's coming down that road.
Um.....so, then, what's with all of the country names, advertising, etc? Do they make you go faster? -
EasternPkwy wrote: The roads in Prospect Park should be used primarily by those who want to move quickly - bikers, joggers, etc.
I don't think 15 mph is that quickly (the speed limit) and I also know that pedestrians have the right of way. So what you seem to be saying is that elderly people who can't move quickly and young children should not be allowed to use the park road on a beautiful summer day so 25 guys can train on their bikes? They might get in these guys way. How unfair is that!!
The roads should NOT be used by people who wish to meander. That's what the dozens of other pathways - that are NOT well-paved enough to be suitable for bikes of joggers - are for...
This does not, of course, address the need for crossing the road to get to the paths or other parts of the park. But I agree with the majority of the posters - be quick about it, and expect fast moving bikes or runners coming at you from the left!!
Mothers and strollers should not be delegated to the unpaved park roads for these guys, nor the wooded roads where there have been recent muggings for these guys. sorry, that is just not right.
I think some good suggestions were posted--training at off peak hours and having a truck lead their way. This will insure the safety of the bicyclists and the million or so other people who use the park who aren't wishing to be professional athletes--people who just want some fresh air and a smooth path to walk on or god forbid, people have to cross the road to exit the park!
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