prospect park is not the tour de France
Comments
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Idlewild wrote: How about if bikers or anyone else on wheels learn to take it easy and be more vigilant when there are a crop of people in the park? How about pedestrians not bolting out in front of people on wheels? Why does one need to attend meetings or time things when you can use common sense? Myself, biking in the park for a few years now I can definately say that there are cyclists and packs who can trek up that hill at a very decent rate. Which I get very pissed about not because they're going fast per say but because they are in great condition to go up that hill and not break a sweat.
Idle - wanna be my spokesperson while I'm gone? Seems you were channeling my thought process here -
Subject: Park paths versus roads and muggings
The roads in Prospect Park were made primarily for wheeled vehicles, the paths were made for pedestrians. The Prospect Park Alliance went through alot of trouble to mark the roads making them easier to use to get from one place in the park to another. They are color coded and there are maps with how they intersect and how to use them at each entrance. The roads were never intended for people to stroll on regardless of if there are cars in the park. Look at how they are pitched to drain runoff from rain. This pitch is hard to walk on. Obviously not for feet, but wheels which have no ankles to complain. Everyone should be able to cross the road without being abused. The cycling community has made and will continue to make an effort to police itself. Pedestrians need to bear in mind that at no time are the park roads a pedestrian mall. Everyone needs to use caution and consideration while using the park. With regards to the recent muggings. The usual over reaction to any kind of incident that occurs in the park is being played out by NYPD. For a few weeks at best they will have uniforms eveywhere including the helicopter doing laps just like the cyclist. This is a waste of fuel and resources and creates the perception that the park is unsafe. The park is very safe. Please use caution while using the park. This is a large urban environment. The paths are safe, the road is safe. This same discussion happens every year. -
Subject: Re: prospect park is not the tour de France
kensingtonmom wrote:
1/8 of a mile is a 2-3 minute walk (4-6 if you have to go both ways).
O.K. I was not in a crosswalk. I never heard the rule that you have to only use the crosswalk when crossing the road in the park on the weekends. Is that a rule? Seems unfair I have to walk a 1/8 of mile out of my way to cross a road that is filled with people walking, jogging and rollerblading just to make things easier for aggressive bike riders?
Seems to me that if this short of a walk would either bring you to a crosswalk, where pedestrian right of way is more clearly defined, or to a spot on the road where you have a clearer line of sight to approaching "aggressive" riders, then in the spirit of compromise, you should be more than willing to make that nominal detour.
Where exactly were you making your crossing, KensingtonMom? -
Sorry, that was me as "guest" in the previous post.
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I ride in the park a fair amount, mostly post-work evenings and rarely run into 'the peloton'.
I think most of the racer types do use the park at off hours for training. They're in there early AM or later evening during the week, and the sanctioned races happen verrrrry early Saturday (Sunday, maybe?) mornings.
Most, if not all, avid cycling enthusiasts avoid the park on nice weekend days because, well, of course it's going to be crowded with all manner of bikers, bladers, walkers, runners, amblers, wanderers, strollers, sportos, motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, and dickheads. I'm sorry to hear you ran into (or were run into, I should say) by the exception. -
Subject: ignorance
for all of you making fun of the cyclists uniforms...for supposedly "progressive" brooklynites you sure are a bunch of ignoramuses...Most of the racers have team sponsorship, hence the uniforms. go to spain or italy, or colorado for that matter, you'll see 50x the number of competitive cyclists. It's by far the toughest sport around, bar none, (and I played football and ice hockey in college so I know)
Most racers like myself do train early in the morning, or worst case scenario at nightfall, and avoid the park like the plague during busy weekend hours. instead we head up route 9W (palisades parkway) despite the fact that it takes a full hour to get out of the city.
There are a couple of notoriously rude cyclists, who aren't racers, out every day. and they do often shout at people who wander into the path. I cringe at that...but even then they are trying to raise peoples' awareness level.
As an earlier poster said, it IS a road...would you cross the street in the middle when cars are allowed in the park? if you want to be oblivious then walk in the rec. lanes or along the paths. -
Subject: Re: prospect park is not the tour de France
I like to say a few things. I don't normally train or ride on weekends because I would be racing in somewhere else. Gay joke???? Hahaha.....as one of the major bike shop sponsors said to someone riding on a hybird complaining about the 70 miles (20 laps around PP) NYS Empire Game Qualifier lasting too long, "give him a number." Show up at one of these races and pin a number. Let's see how gay we are.
First, there are more than 20 local racing teams in NYC and couple of very large recreational cycling clubs. We are no small number. We are certainly can't be pushed around. For the predestrains crossing the park, just look before you cross. Don't even try to tempt the cyclists. Most of the time, they will get to you faster than you think. Do you tempt fate when you cross in the middle of the road on, let's say, 6th ave during the rush hour??? I feel sorry for you that you depise us and cycling so much. Racing and cycling is a great sport and require a great deal of dedicaton and discipline. We can be mentors for the younger kids such as your childs and cusins. Now, what do they play now since you teach them to hit us and cycling? Be obese and play some street ball????
Ride on and race hard!!!!kensingtonmom wrote: Prospect Park is not the training ground for the next Lance Armstrong. I really think *some* of these over outfitted bicyclists have to get a grip on reality and share the park road. They are one group of people who need to use it and not dominate it. Today I was crossing the road with my stroller. I looked left and right before proceeding--all was clear. When I got to the center a pack of bicyclists came up over the hill (not in the bike lane) and then started cursing me for being in their way. "Watch where the f your going." "GET OUTTA MY WAY asshole." For God's sakes it is a public park and I looked both ways and was crossing the friggin road! Ugghh.
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Subject: Re: prospect park is not the tour de France
Anonymous wrote:
I was crossing near the stables.
1/8 of a mile is a 2-3 minute walk (4-6 if you have to go both ways).
Where exactly were you making your crossing, KensingtonMom?
A 2-3 minute walk pushing 70 lbs of babies is fine if the bikers do indeed have the right of way (perhaps they do in the way that an SUV has the right of way over a mini-cooper). I guess instead of going in circles on this topic, I am contacting the Park Police and finding out the rules: who has the right of way when the road is closed? Is the road primarily for wheeled vehicles when the road is closed or is it for the community to use with pedestrians having the right of way (again, this is what I believe is the rule according to the parks website)? And what is the biking speed limit? I was under the impression it was 15 mph. If that is the case then this is all a moot point because there is no way a bike going 15 mph is going to come unexpectantly over a hill or around a bend on anyone who is moderately alert.
Incidentally I love biking and think there is a way to share the road and for the cyclists to train. I do believe it is a few bad apples but they might ruin it for everyone. It does seem inappropriate for people to be training on a beautiful summer day when the road is crowded with all kinds of people "sharing" the road and not dominating it. -
Subject: info. for the uninformed
More info for the ignorant (you know who you are)
-all racers are required to be licenced. Most have outstanding bike handling skills and the good sense not to terrorize fellow park users.
-some NYC racers are effectively "semi pro" and a few of the younger ones are on professional development teams. Believe it or not NYC is an excellent place for aspiring pro cyclists because there are more races within 3 hours of here than practically anywhere else in the US.
-15 mph doesn't even make a fit athlete break a sweat. And if the 15 mph "limit" is to be enforced for cyclists, then that should be the limit for cars in the park as well.
-finally, and I say this as a parent....the safety of your precious little darlings is far more threatened by cell phone using drivers both in and out of the park than any cyclists. -
Subject: Re: info. for the uninformed
jmp66 wrote:
Except for those cell phone using cyclists (yep, they exist).
-finally, and I say this as a parent....the safety of your precious little darlings is far more threatened by cell phone using drivers both in and out of the park than any cyclists.
Look folks, there have actually been some reasonable posts on this thread, namely by Ahab, LuisF, and 718Bike, among others. They have the sensibility to see that the issue is not nearly as cut-and-dry as KensingtonMom or some of the cycling folks (jmp66 et al) want to make it seem.
Are there out of control cyclists? Sure. Are there oblivious pedestrians? Of course. Do even intelligent, even-keeled cyclists and pedestrians need to make some allowances when sharing the park road? You bet. This last is the most important part. I'll agree with jmp that 15mph is an absurdly low threshold. I could do running workouts in which I'd surpass that speed for short periods, and I sure as heck know I'm not going to be a danger to anyone but myself. A barely fit person would gain little physiological benefit in traveling at such a low speed around the park, let alone someone who is actually trying to exercise at a high level.
My take on the matter? Aggro cyclists -- calm the hell down, be more aware of high traffic times, and be especially careful around the blindish turns at GAP and down by the stables.
Baby pushers -- do your part in making the park, yourself, your children, and the cyclists safe -- walk to a place where you have a clear line of sight. I understand being shaken up by nearly being hit by cylists, but now that you know, it shouldn't be an issue to cross at a slightly different spot with a better field of vision. -
Subject: Re: prospect park is not the tour de France
Anonymous wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen a cyclist stop for a red light in the park. In fact, I have had cyclists scream at me for crossing at a crosswalk when I had a walk sign. So what would be the point of going to the crosswalk?
Seems to me that if this short of a walk would either bring you to a crosswalk, where pedestrian right of way is more clearly defined, or to a spot on the road where you have a clearer line of sight to approaching "aggressive" riders, then in the spirit of compromise, you should be more than willing to make that nominal detour.
Where exactly were you making your crossing, KensingtonMom? -
Subject: Re: info. for the uninformed
jmp66 wrote: More info for the ignorant (you know who you are)
You're not winning any converts to your point of view with that kind of intro.jmp66 wrote: -all racers are required to be licenced. Most have outstanding bike handling skills and the good sense not to terrorize fellow park users.
This clearly isn't universally the case based on the complaints above. The problem isn't cyclists as a whole, but the minority of them who think that non-cyclists have a lesser right to the park than themselves.jmp66 wrote: -some NYC racers are effectively "semi pro" and a few of the younger ones are on professional development teams. Believe it or not NYC is an excellent place for aspiring pro cyclists because there are more races within 3 hours of here than practically anywhere else in the US.
Whatever their status, pro, semi-pro or wannabe (and I'm betting most of the offenders are in the last category) they have no greater right to the park than anyone else.jmp66 wrote: -15 mph doesn't even make a fit athlete break a sweat. And if the 15 mph "limit" is to be enforced for cyclists, then that should be the limit for cars in the park as well.
I think that anyone who uses the park for recreation would agree with you about the need for the limit to apply to cars. The fact is that if the limit is 15 mph, then those going faster are clearly in the wrong. The park is for everyone. It's not a private training course for aspiring Olympic athletes.jmp66 wrote: -finally, and I say this as a parent....the safety of your precious little darlings is far more threatened by cell phone using drivers both in and out of the park than any cyclists.
Irrelevant. -
Subject: Re: info. for the uninformed
jmp66 wrote: -some NYC racers are effectively "semi pro" and a few of the younger ones are on professional development teams. Believe it or not NYC is an excellent place for aspiring pro cyclists because there are more races within 3 hours of here than practically anywhere else in the US.
Makes sense from a location standpoint, but still - I maintain that the training situation must be less than ideal if Prospect Park is a preferred location. Practically speaking, if cycling were my primary thing, I'd live outside the city so I could pound the roads and yet still be close to the races. If you're sombody that lives and works in NY that happens to like to go to a lot of races and needs to ride around the park, it's cool - just don't try to make anyone feel like they are jeopardizing our Tour de France chances with concerns for their personal safety.
And yeah, I'm aware of the advantages of special biking clothes but it seems like any time this converstaion happens, someone comments on the garish nature of the outfits. I figured this time I'd be that guy, and I admit it was gratuitous - but not mean-spirited.
Drano, didn't log in. -
Subject: reply to carnivore
No it isn't at all irrelevant that cars present by far the biggest danger. This whole thing is about Kensington Mom feeling threatened, no?
You are right, though, that the few cyclists who conduct themselves poorly are non racers.
The park IS for everyone. that's why there are 2 lanes for joggers/pedestrians. The road is a road. The only time that this system gets compromised is when cars are allowed in.
I do not think of the park as my private olympic training ground. Whenever I have the time I prefer to get out of town. As I said before I cringe when fellow riders yell at pedestrians, especially kids who can't be expected to know better. I myself am always mindful of pedestrians and am willing to slow down when things get chaotic. But I resent being ridiculed by clueless people who have zero understanding of the sport. -
Subject: Re: reply to carnivore
jmp66 wrote: The park IS for everyone. that's why there are 2 lanes for joggers/pedestrians. The road is a road. The only time that this system gets compromised is when cars are allowed in.
I'm interested to see what happens as more and more rollerbladers start using the road (where they clearly belong- not in the jogging/pedestrian lanes) as the area gentrifies further. -
Isn't rollerblading dead?
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Subject: Re: reply to carnivore
jmp66 wrote: No it isn't at all irrelevant that cars present by far the biggest danger. This whole thing is about Kensington Mom feeling threatened, no?
Threatened? I think more that I was crossing the road in a reasonable manner, not meandering and looking both ways and I was surprised by a pack of cyclists comign over a hill who then cursed at me. I am a mother pushing two children. I am not a self-absorbed person. I don't think parents take precedence over everyone else. I am someone who wants to enjoy the park and share the park with all kinds of people. I don't think on the weekends one group needs to dominate it by using it in an unsafe manner. That is all. -
since when are being a parent and being self absorbed mutually exclusivejavascript:emoticon(':lol:')
I'm sorry a group of cyclists almost hit you. As I said, the truly serious ones avoid the park during such times. But I find it hard to belive that there was an inadequate sightline by the stables...no cyclists are that fast. It is YOUR responsibility to make sure that you can truly see what was coming. This is the case while driving the car, crossing a street or even in the park. What if instead of bikes it was a police car speeding through the park? It happens a lot. Please do everyone (especially your kids) a favor and only cross the road when you can truly see what's coming. -
jmp66 wrote: It is YOUR responsibility to make sure that you can truly see what was coming.
Wrong. The pedestrian should make a reasonable effort to make sure no one is coming, but ultimately cyclists and cars have a responsibility not to hit pedestrians. Even if a pedestrian walks out into traffic blindfolded, if a car hits them, the driver is at fault. Period.
Any lawyers out there want to weigh in on this? I'm pretty sure that's how the liability laws work in NY. The last one able to avoid an accident, (which is always the vehicle), is at fault. -
a pedestrian can walk into traffic blindfolded and it's the driver's liability?
I don't know about the law but common sense says it's your fault if you get creamed.
anyway this thread is getting ridiculous. bottom line: cyclists, show a little courtesy and expect that someone is going to wander into the road at any time. people crossing the road ... expect that someone is coming over the hill unless you have a clear line of sight, and don't linger in the roadway. -
Carnivore wrote: [quote=jmp66]It is YOUR responsibility to make sure that you can truly see what was coming.
Wrong. The pedestrian should make a reasonable effort to make sure no one is coming, but ultimately cyclists and cars have a responsibility not to hit pedestrians. Even if a pedestrian walks out into traffic blindfolded, if a car hits them, the driver is at fault. Period.
Any lawyers out there want to weigh in on this? I'm pretty sure that's how the liability laws work in NY. The last one able to avoid an accident, (which is always the vehicle), is at fault.actually someone did that to me once and didnt get to live. well thank the gods some cop saw the whole thing from the side. lady walk into the high way my luck miss the car on my right lane. and bam i nailed her. she died later in the hospital. cop wrote up the whole thing and i went to court and judge took a few secs asking me to recount from my point of view and it was close to the police report. and i went home right after that. he said it wasnt my fault etc...i wasnt guilt of anything. my insurance company settle with the ladies family even though it wasnt my fault. they told me its cheaper that way and ladies family was happy with the settlement. -
armchair_warrior wrote: actually someone did that to me once and didnt get to live. well thank the gods some cop saw the whole thing from the side. lady walk into the high way my luck miss the car on my right lane. and bam i nailed her. she died later in the hospital. cop wrote up the whole thing and i went to court and judge took a few secs asking me to recount from my point of view and it was close to the police report. and i went home right after that. he said it wasnt my fault etc...i wasnt guilt of anything. my insurance company settle with the ladies family even though it wasnt my fault. they told me its cheaper that way and ladies family was happy with the settlement.
The judge may have cleared you of criminal charges, but as far as civil liability goes, I bet you would have lost if that had gone to trial.
The law is sometimes unfair. -
Carnivore wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior]actually someone did that to me once and didnt get to live. well thank the gods some cop saw the whole thing from the side. lady walk into the high way my luck miss the car on my right lane. and bam i nailed her. she died later in the hospital. cop wrote up the whole thing and i went to court and judge took a few secs asking me to recount from my point of view and it was close to the police report. and i went home right after that. he said it wasnt my fault etc...i wasnt guilt of anything. my insurance company settle with the ladies family even though it wasnt my fault. they told me its cheaper that way and ladies family was happy with the settlement.
The judge may have cleared you of criminal charges, but as far as civil liability goes, I bet you would have lost if that had gone to trial.
The law is sometimes unfair."civil law" is never fair! thief breaks into someones yard and hurts himself. sues owner for hurting himself and wins. even though the criminal laws are on your side. its very uncivil of those stupid laws. -
I'll go there early in the morning to train and it's fine.
I don't have any problems with the people in the park since most people who are there early before 10am are people who are exercising anyway.
From 10-11am, you're wandering into a grey area.
Beyond 11am and the park starts crowding up, I would never want to train there at that time of day.
Yes there's a group who's there almost daily (the rest of us have regular jobs to go to) who think they pretty much own the park. I ride with them, they're pretty fast (obviously) but sometimes they can be a little too aggressive.
There are also some pedestrians who walk diagonally across the road WITH their backs turned to traffic, that's just about the worst way to go. Actually the worst is at the top of the hill where a lot of runners and pedestrians just cut in and out of the lane to get to the grand army plaza exit.
As a regular cyclist, I try my best to accomodate the hours of most pedestrians and runners and to watch out for them but I can't have sympathy for that ipodded up idiot who dashes into the road around a corner and I slam into them at 35mph. -
Flexichick wrote: [quote=Idlewild]How about if bikers or anyone else on wheels learn to take it easy and be more vigilant when there are a crop of people in the park? How about pedestrians not bolting out in front of people on wheels? Why does one need to attend meetings or time things when you can use common sense? Myself, biking in the park for a few years now I can definately say that there are cyclists and packs who can trek up that hill at a very decent rate. Which I get very pissed about not because they're going fast per say but because they are in great condition to go up that hill and not break a sweat.
Idle - wanna be my spokesperson while I'm gone? Seems you were channeling my thought process here
Suuure! My honor and pleasure. Beautiful people think alike don't they?. Where are you going btw? -
Subject: Prospect Park Tour de France - Duh
Prejudice isn't just about race or origin - it's when you make a decision about someone before you get to know them. Calling all bikers aggressive, all pedestrians dumb and all at home mommies self-oriented is akin to calling all Asians bad drivers.
The rules of the park are simple - stay in the lines (crosswalks, bike lanes, etc.), yield to faster traffic and speak like you'd like to be spoken to - regardless of how you travel through the park. Using prejudicial impulses so that you don't have to think: that's up to you.
Case in point, how does the person who started this post know that the next Tour de France champion isn't training in Prospect Park? George Hincapie, a New York City native who has often talked about the fun he had racing in Prospect Park as a kid, is one of the 2006 Tour's pre-race favorites. -
Subject: Re: Prospect Park Tour de France - Duh
PR4560976 wrote: Prejudice isn't just about race or origin - it's when you make a decision about someone before you get to know them. Calling all bikers aggressive, all pedestrians dumb and all at home mommies self-oriented is akin to calling all Asians bad drivers.
OK, yes, most bikers and pedestrians are considerate, a few are not, people shd share and respect each other's space, agree, agree, agree.
The rules of the park are simple - stay in the lines (crosswalks, bike lanes, etc.), yield to faster traffic and speak like you'd like to be spoken to - regardless of how you travel through the park....{snip}.
BUT... crosswalks? I have been running, biking, and for a nostalgia-tinged period in the 90s blading in the park for over a decade now. And I expect to see a cheetah eating a penguin in Prospect Park before I see a biker stop for a crosswalk, whatever color the light, whether a pedestrian is in it or not. -
Again forgot to login. I'm guest.
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Subject: Re: Park paths versus roads and muggings
guest LuisF wrote: The roads in Prospect Park were made primarily for wheeled vehicles, the paths were made for pedestrians. The Prospect Park Alliance went through alot of trouble to mark the roads making them easier to use to get from one place in the park to another. They are color coded and there are maps with how they intersect and how to use them at each entrance. The roads were never intended for people to stroll on regardless of if there are cars in the park. Look at how they are pitched to drain runoff from rain. This pitch is hard to walk on. Obviously not for feet, but wheels which have no ankles to complain.
Maybe you haven't noticed, but a lane of the road is designated for runners and walkers. So your idea that the road is intended solely for wheeled vehicles is incorrect. Too much of the road has been given over to bikes and cars, but they don't own the whole damn thing.
As for those paths -- many of them aren't usable by anyone who is pushing a stroller. Say you come into the park at 15th Street and want to go to the lake. There is a path you can take, but you will come to a steep set of stairs -- too many steps to realistically be expected to carry a stroller up or down. Also, the path goes past an area where several homeless people camp out, and then it goes into the woods. I think it would be reasonable not to want to go that way if you were a solo woman with a young child. I'm not as familiar with the GAP side of the park, but I think you would have similar issues going from GAP to the zoo. -
Subject: Re: Prospect Park Tour de France -
PR4560976 wrote:
that was me. HOw about, I don't care if the next Tour de France champion is trainign in the park. Or the next Olympic sprinter, if that person is going to run aggressively and not share the park roads. Train where it isn't so crowded. I still think one activity shouldn't dominate that road when the road is closed to traffic and the park is busy
Case in point, how does the person who started this post know that the next Tour de France champion isn't training in Prospect Park? George Hincapie, a New York City native who has often talked about the fun he had racing in Prospect Park as a kid, is one of the 2006 Tour's pre-race favorites.
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