SPLIT TOPIC: do i have to be a girl ?

kosherdave wrote: [quote=quijibo][quote=kosherdave]Just out of curiousity, if a woman "loving gay men" is fag-hag, is there a term for a man "loving lesbian women?" I mean, aside from the too wordy "lesbian-obsessed straight boys."

And while I'm wondering... are there any really good gay bars in the PS area?

you know. i've always meant to go check out "Excelsior" on 5th.
but none of my straight male friends have ever been interested or had the cojones

wanna go check it out KD? O:)

wait. does my asking make me gay now? :-k

No, but if we make out, and you like it, then perhaps :?

Oh and yeah, I'd go! Where on 5th is it?

If you guys make out, then I want to come watch :roll:

Flexichick wrote:
If you guys make out, then I want to come watch :roll:

you're such a tease!

sweet tea wrote:
listen, some of my best friends are straight.

and while i'm glad to hear that cattyshack's trivia night is open to all, i do find it weird that there was so much uproar about getting in when certain parties thought they might not be welcomed. does every place on earth have to welcome straight men with open arms? isn't it enough that you're the socially dominant group?

i remember when i was a kid, reading in the paper that the university in my town was building a black cultural center. and they quoted a white guy wanting to know why there wasn't a white cultural center. and the response quote from a black person was "please. the whole campus is your white cultural center."

please don't tell me how great and open-minded and etc. you are. i'm sure you really are all fantastic, and we can all hang out and have a great time. but that doesn't mean i can't want a place of my own. when i'm welcome at the augusta golf club, we'll talk about it.

Listen, until the Augusta golf club welcomes you, I'll personally have no part in it either (not that I golf, but you get my point). This extends to ANY group that doesn't welcome someone just because they are "different."
Having a place to go where likeminded people go is one thing, keeping it that way by forcing people out is another thing though and it would make Cattyshack no better than Augusta. IMO
I've worked in and frequented lots of gay bars in my wee existance; never was one of them 100% gay in clientel, but never did one shut people out, or become overrun with straight people either.

kosherdave wrote: Oh and as another aside, the title for this topic, Do I Have To Be A Girl would make a great Drag King (or queen depending on the spin) autobiography/book title. Seriously, I'd probably read it. Then again, I'm, kinda obsessed with gay culture in general (noooo, not lesbians )

I have a book for you . . .
Jayne County's autobiography
"Man Enough To Be A Woman"

a seriously fun read, as well as a catchy title

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayne_County

sweet tea wrote: but there's a difference between saying "i don't really care who you sleep with" and the way SOME straight me act towards lesbians, which has everything to do with "caring" who i sleep with.

I think that's the answer to today's trivia question.

except . . .
except . . .
except nobody was saying "i don't really care who you sleep with"
wasn't it more like "where the ladies at? where the ladies at?"

The ladies don't care to be fetishized. It's not mutual. It's aggressive.
And that ain't no way to treat a lady . . .

(sorry, the pop songs have taken over)

Who said "where the ladies at? where the ladies at?"?

I must have missed that post.

pitu wrote: [quote=sweet tea] but there's a difference between saying "i don't really care who you sleep with" and the way SOME straight me act towards lesbians, which has everything to do with "caring" who i sleep with.

I think that's the answer to today's trivia question.

except . . .
except . . .
except nobody was saying "i don't really care who you sleep with"
wasn't it more like "where the ladies at? where the ladies at?"

The ladies don't care to be fetishized. It's not mutual. It's aggressive.
And that ain't no way to treat a lady . . .

(sorry, the pop songs have taken over)

I heard it too, doll. of course, I did go to wellesley, so I'm somewhat hyperaware of fetishizing of culture.

^
What Steve said.

steve wrote: First of all, straight men (for the most part) don't have any sexual interest in lesbians, they are interested in women having sex with each other, two totally different things. How this isn't obvious to all of you is beyond me.

Second, why should this be offensive to anyone? I can't stop people from looking at me in bars, whether or not I'm with someone? Why should gays and lesbians be able to? When you're in public, people look at you.

They may be two SUBTLY different things, but they are in no way two TOTALLY different things, and how that isn't obvious to you is beyond me. One of the reasons lesbians and bi women generally like lesbian bars is because they don't particularly like or appreciate being fetishized by men and it's nice to have a space where we can hang out with other women or bring a female date or mack on other women or whatever without some straight guy leering at you.

I wasn't put on this earth to serve as anyone's entertainment. Yet that's how I feel a lot -- not all, and I'm not saying that this necessarily applies to the people in this discussion -- but a lot of straight men look at me when they know I'm bi. And I bet just about every bisexual or lesbian woman you know can tell you of at least one time she's been completely skeeved out by some straight guy coming into a dyke bar to get his jollies from looking at us.

steve wrote: Finally, again the idea of gay bars, black fraternities, and even Jewish countries is offensive to me for the reasons KD laid out. I'll admit to a level of hypocrisy when it comes to Jewish countries though, as I support Israel's right to exist, if not everything it does.

There are simply some spaces where queer people prefer to congregate with one another where they know they're not going to be harassed or leered at. If the tables were turned maybe you'd understand how I feel about that. I don't know how else to make you understand.

Appolonia,

I'm having trouble getting the quotes lined up and it's late, so I'm going to
just discard them. I'm sure anyone who wants can follow along...

I actually agree with you that it is a subtle distinction, but I do believe it is significant. I love the idea of women having sex with each other but I've never fetishized lesbians. To me it's a somewhat clear boundary. I don't think I've ever looked at two women making out in a gay bar and been turned on by it. In a different context though sure. However, my perception of that line colors my thinking. I may be in the minority there though.

Now, while I agree and empathize with you about wanting a space of your own, I don't think it right, unless you are going to give heteros or whites or whatever the same rights. I think it is important to establish good inclusive places, not good exclusive ones. I don't think you effect social change, which is essentially what you are talking about, by keeping out a group of people, because some don't agree with you on the subtleties of human interaction.

Don't get me wrong I understand how you feel, I just disagree with you entirely.

apollonia666 wrote: [quote=steve]Now, while I agree and empathize with you about wanting a space of your own, I don't think it right, unless you are going to give heteros or whites or whatever the same rights.

You mean, like, pretty much every other bar in existence?

Last I checked gays, lesbians, and anyone else were welcome in any bar I had ever been too. In fact, I may never have been to a bar where they wouldn't be welcome. I hope so.

It really comes down to 2 things if you feel that uncomfortable in a bar.

1. You have rejected the prevailing culture to the point that being immersed in it is uncomfortable.

2. You cannot share public space with others that are not like you in a particular way, or offend your sensibility. You cannot ignore others.

apollonia666 wrote: [quote=steve][quote=apollonia666][quote=steve]Now, while I agree and empathize with you about wanting a space of your own, I don't think it right, unless you are going to give heteros or whites or whatever the same rights.

You mean, like, pretty much every other bar in existence?

Last I checked gays, lesbians, and anyone else were welcome in any bar I had ever been too. In fact, I may never have been to a bar where they wouldn't be welcome. I hope so.

It really comes down to 2 things if you feel that uncomfortable in a bar.

1. You have rejected the prevailing culture to the point that being immersed in it is uncomfortable.

2. You cannot share public space with others that are not like you in a particular way, or offend your sensibility. You cannot ignore others.

Um, no, actually. I *have* had really unpleasant experiences in straight bars. I've been harassed when with a female date in a straight bar, more than once. And less scary but still unpleasant than harassment, think the leering I was talking about earlier is less pronounced when you're the only queer couple in a predominantly-straight bars? That means I've "rejected the prevailing culture" or "cannot share public space with others that are not like" me? Gee, I guess I brought it on myself.

I go to straight bars all the time; I don't have any problem with them. I'm pretty femme; I blend in just fine and all that. I just think it's also good to have queer spaces where queer people feel safe. Like I said before, I really don't know how to make you understand this.

Imagine if heterosexual people made up only 10% or so of the culture. Imagine that you can't marry the woman you love, that in many states you can still get fired for being heterosexual, that in some countries you can be executed for being heterosexual, that gay people occasionally beat straight people up just because they're heterosexual, that ministers preached about how evil you are every Sunday in churches across America. Oh, and imagine that 95% of the bars in the world were predominantly lesbian or gay, and that if you took a woman to one you don't know whether you'd be stared at, called names, or beat up as you leave. Do you think that just MAYBE once in a while you would perhaps like to go have a drink in a bar where you were around mostly other straight people?

Again, I do understand where you are coming from, and that is a lovely picture of other countries and even this one you paint, but queer spaces. How queer should they be? Is a place not a queer space if a straight owns it? How about if straights work there? What makes a space queer? It's a slippery discriminatory slope based in quasi-feminism.

This is New York City, probably the most gay friendly place ever. If you can't find a bar you can be comfortable in with a same sex date, then i have to wonder if you are not the problem, and mind you I have no reason to think you are not a cool person.

I'm thinking of all the predominently hetero bars on Vanderbilt and 5th Avenue and I can't imagine the chances of being beat up or verballly insulted are that high. At Great Lakes? Soda? Patio? The Gate? Buttermilk? Commonwealth? Royale?

In fact, I would argue that some assholes walking near a reputed queer space would be a bigger worry. Opportunity and all.

escap wrote: Second, what is the deal (flexichick) with girls wanting to see guys make out? This I find truly bizarre. I've dated two girls who were into this, and fortunately had to disappoint both of them. I think they both liked the idea of emasculating men, or perhaps of androgyny. I certainly don't get it.

It was a joke amongst people who know each other (me, Q and KD). See that smiley face?