SPLIT TOPIC: do i have to be a girl ?

apollonia666 · September 2006

steve wrote: Again, I do understand where you are coming from, and that is a lovely picture of other countries and even this one you paint, but queer spaces. How queer should they be? Is a place not a queer space if a straight owns it? How about if straights work there? What makes a space queer? It's a slippery discriminatory slope based in quasi-feminism.

See, I still don't think you understand at all. That "lovely picture" is reality for LGBT people in this world. I find your "Oh, yeah, I understand but..." remarks incredibly dismissive.

steve wrote: This is New York City, probably the most gay friendly place ever. If you can't find a bar you can be comfortable in with a same sex date, then i have to wonder if you are not the problem, and mind you I have no reason to think you are not a cool person.

Sure, keep putting it off on me. Yes, NYC is a lot more gay-friendly than most places in the U.S., but you're sadly mistaken if you think that means it's comfortable and safe at all times. Ask Kevin Aviance what he thinks about that notion. Ask my friend who was threatened with a screwdriver on the 9 train in Manhattan in the middle of the day a month ago by a couple of guys who called him a faggot and said, "In our neighborhood, we'd kill you." Ask the woman I just got off the phone with at my job who wanted to know what she can do about her gay son being beat up in school in the Bronx this morning (for real -- I had to stop typing this post for a few minutes to take her call). Ask one of the victims of any of the 566 reported incidents of anti-gay harassment and violence compiled by the Anti-Violence Project last year. This stuff happens, even in the most "gay-friendly" places. Why is it so inconceivable to you that LGBT people might sometimes just want to be among themselves?

steve wrote: I'm thinking of all the predominently hetero bars on Vanderbilt and 5th Avenue and I can't imagine the chances of being beat up or verballly insulted are that high. At Great Lakes? Soda? Patio? The Gate? Buttermilk? Commonwealth? Royale?

Great. While you're at it, keep ignoring the part I said about also not wanting to be leered or stared at. Because I do agree it's unlikely I'd get beat up at any of those places, but I have been made to feel very uncomfortable by other patrons at more than one of the places you mention.

Escap raises something I think applies here as well:

escap wrote: A quick take on the gay bar bad/good argument, segregation occurs very naturally. There are black bars, white bars, latino bars, punk bars, cop bars, trucker bars, college bars, b&t bars, hipster bars, etc. It's a fact of life that people go where they feel comfortable. As long as there's no law enforcing this or rule that officially prevents 'others', I can't see how this is a problem.

I think this perfectly addresses the question about what a queer space is. If you go back and re-read what I've said so far, I NEVER implied or said that straight people shouldn't be allowed to go to a gay or lesbian bar. I am simply trying to explain why having those spaces as an option is important to LGBT people, and trying to explain why some of us aren't that comfortable when straight people come to them. Especially when they come to them with a flip, "woo-woo let's go look at the lesbians!" attitude, which I think is what Pitu may have been perceiving when she raised this in the first place.

steve · September 2006

I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree on this one. I think self segregating behavior is antisocial, you think it is neccesary. I'm not interested in changing your position, and my position is not going to change. Despite my feelings on the issue, I do think I understand where you are coming from, I just don't have anything at stake in the issue, so I can afford to weight that, along with everything else.

willbrender · September 2006

Appollonia - I totally get what you're saying I for a large part, I agree with you on having a place you feel safe.

That said, I don't think ANYBODY had a "woo woo, let's go look at lesbians" and I think that Q somehow got dragged into that rather unfairly.

apollonia666 · September 2006

Flexichick wrote: Appollonia - I totally get what you're saying I for a large part, I agree with you on having a place you feel safe.

Thank you.

Flexichick wrote: That said, I don't think ANYBODY had a "woo woo, let's go look at lesbians" and I think that Q somehow got dragged into that rather unfairly.

Gotcha. I'm not saying that's how I was necessarily perceiving it, by any means. I think the obvious answer to the question of whether one "has to be a girl" to go to a lesbian bar is of course you don't HAVE to be, but the fact remains that a lot of the women who go to lesbian bars aren't as comfortable there when straight guys show up. Not all, but some. And I suspect that's all Pitu was trying to say in the first place.

apollonia666 · September 2006

steve wrote: I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I guess so.

saxman54 · September 2006

that should have been "and for a large part".

I've been to gay bars and lesbian bars with friends who are LGBT...and in some cases to support friends who are performing (I know a lot of musicians). I never felt unwelcomed, but I also probably wasn't perceived as threatening to either group.

brooklynmystic · September 2006

and on a lighter note.....I was getting dressed to go out one night at my house and was chaning my clothes in front of my very good friend. She started covering her eyes and said "What are you DOING?! You know I'm a lesbian!!!!"

Me: "Hey, I undress in front of lesbians at the gym all the time. I just don't always know who they are"

stacey · September 2006

Appollonia I must commend your explainations they are truly, truly informative. But let me just add a little of my own personal experiences. When I was growing up I had many GLB friends and neighbors and never felt that they were ever prejudiced against or should feel uncomfortable - but this was in my own little world of Wyckoff Street, Brooklyn USA. As I got older I can tell you the exact time when my little world was shattered by the prejudices of NYers when a friend of mine (male) asked me and my then boyfriend to come with them to a gay bar for diner and drinks to celebrate his partner's birthday. Instead I asked if we could go to a new place that I wanted to try out and they agreed. During dinner I was able to turn to my boyfriend and kiss him hold hands on top of the table while we sat across from my friend and his partner. The whole time they sat next to each other but never held hands, kissed or even drapped their arm over one another's shoulder. These were two people who were so lovey-dovey when we were hanging out that I thought they might have had a fight or something. When his partner was opening his gift from my friend (which was a 2 week cruise) they turned to each other hugged tightly and gave a loving kiss to each other. The maitre'd approached us about 5 minutes later and said that the display WAS UPSETTING OTHER PATRONS!! This upset me sooo much and my friends told me "dont worry we are used to it" . I dont know what upset me more the attitudes of strangers or that my friends had to "be used" to this type of behavior. Needless to say we hit a gay bar afterwards and it was so wonderful to see my friends being able to be themselves and enjoy a night out without having to be ridiculed for being in love.

I recently have taken in my friend's brother who was living in W. VA with his elderly grandma and is 17 years old and gay. He told me some of the things he was dealing with there and it was horrible. Finally he moved back here with me and my heart breaks when he tells me the full story of the things he was subjected to. Someone actually brought a used condom to school, threw it at him in the cafeteria and told him look your lunch is inside. His own guidance counselor told him - you should go to church maybe that will help you with "your problem". He was beaten up twice and one of the time the words "d k sucker" was written on his forehead. When security called the police do you know what this policeman said - "well d k sucker does not sound like a bias crime to me. Maybe if he wasn't so 'out there' he wouldn't get picked on". This was only the first 2 weeks of high school. I can go on and on but it hurts too much to think about.

Sorry to rant but basically my point is that GLBT people are made to feel like outsiders even though you might not see it.

SPLIT TOPIC: do i have to be a girl ?

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