Chilling article on Bed Stuy Gangs

guru wrote: When the police start shooting Irish people 40 and 50 times in the street and Irish grandmothers are shot in their own homes by the state then the history will not matter because it will no longer be present.

Yes, becuase the police exceute and gun down Black people in cold blood every day.

Between Guliani and Bloomberg, there have been maybe 20 high-profile killings of black men by the police. At minimum, Twice as many NYPD cops have lost their lives to said Black men in that same time period.

The paradox here is that 50 - 60 years ago there wasn't something called homelessness and now that according to you times are much better and we have a major problem of homelessness. How is that possible if things are so much better today? Are things really better or is there an illusion of things being better? This a prime example about why one needs to really study history otherwise it's easy to draw the wrong conclusions about why things are they way that they are.

School infrastructure was no where near at the level of decay it is today 50 years ago and there weren't huge areas of concentrated poor either which gives rise to all types of pathology no matter what the race is.

The manufacturing base of this country has been in steady decline in this country and evidence of that is all around you as most factories that you see and or live in around bed-stuy no longer produce goods and supply jobs, they now house people.

Anonymous wrote: The paradox here is that 50 - 60 years ago there wasn't something called homelessness .

Wrong. The Great depression saw shitloads of people homeless, of all colors. Going down to the docks during the 40s and 50s, one saw lots of homeless. Also, the true reason homelessness is increasing is becuase the mentally ill/drug addled lost the mental hopsitals that used to take them in (Thanks to the wonderful people of the ACLU), and now guess where they are.


I will say this thou: We do need more homeless shelters and we should reopen the mental hospitals.


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Ilikesausage wrote: [quote=guru]When the police start shooting Irish people 40 and 50 times in the street and Irish grandmothers are shot in their own homes by the state then the history will not matter because it will no longer be present.

Yes, becuase the police exceute and gun down Black people in cold blood every day.

Between Guliani and Bloomberg, there have been maybe 20 high-profile killings of black men by the police. At minimum, Twice as many NYPD cops have lost their lives to said Black men in that same time period.
Not quite everyday, but far too frequently if you ask me.

Ilikesausage wrote: http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_1_sean_bell.html

This says 16 since 1999. Does not include the two auxiliary officers nor the two clipped over on Lefferts. So that makes 20.

Meanwhile:

Desmound
Bell
Dialio
Louima
Rooftop kid


I do know more AAs were shot, as well as Police. I will continue to update the list.

Menawhile, read the link posted. The drop in crime under Guiliani saved the lives of 13,000 Black men. Oops! Guess I wasn't supposed to say that.

I believe this is an accurate list of Police killed.

http://www.cire.com/nypd/heroes.htm

The number of shootings in the last 20 years don't come any where close to the number that you're talking about. I'm not sure why you are spreading disinformation here.

The drop in crime happened under David Dinkins, it was his policies that were implemented that Guliani came in and took credit for. Please do some research because you don't know what you're talking about. You also sound to me like a racist based on the things that you have posted.

Anonymous wrote: [quote=Ilikesausage]http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_1_sean_bell.html

This says 16 since 1999. Does not include the two auxiliary officers nor the two clipped over on Lefferts. So that makes 20.

Meanwhile:

Desmound
Bell
Dialio
Louima
Rooftop kid


I do know more AAs were shot, as well as Police. I will continue to update the list.

Menawhile, read the link posted. The drop in crime under Guiliani saved the lives of 13,000 Black men. Oops! Guess I wasn't supposed to say that.

I believe this is an accurate list of Police killed.

http://www.cire.com/nypd/heroes.htm

The number of shootings in the last 20 years don't come any where close to the number that you're talking about. I'm not sure why you are spreading disinformation here.

The drop in crime happened under David Dinkins, it was his policies that were implemented that Guliani came in and took credit for. Please do some research because you don't know what you're talking about. You also sound to me like a racist based on the things that you have posted.


What drop? Going from 2200 to 1900 between 1990 and 1993? Uhhh, okay :roll: . The same kind of fluctuations occured all the time. 1994-1995 was when it dropped the most under Guiliani.

To be fair, Dinkinds did preside over the crack epidemic, so maybe there's a grain of truth to his numbers being artifically higher. As far as being racist, whatever :roll: . Why don't you actually bring up a post where you think I'm "racist"?


Also, why don't you post how many Black men shot and killed by Police and see if it measures up?

windowbox wrote: It's not a matter of using history as an excuse or a reason to dislike individual people, it's using history to help understand the context of current conditions. I hear people say things like "if the asians/irish/italian/jewish immigrants can climb out of poverty and violence, then why can't the african-americans?" as a means to criticize the african-american community rather than reflecting on the legacy of slavery and post-slavery segregation in the US. For one thing, the Irish-Americans were allowed to become cops and firefighters long before those professions were open to African-Americans.

It's a total oversimplification to analogize this to the case of an Irish person being "mad at" an English person.

It's also ridiculously ignorant to say that there's no "evidence" of whites being assumed to be more competent in the workplace. I can't even address that.

I don't recall saying that I was making any comparision between the Irish and black experience as such, actually. The only reason I mentioned being Irish and discussing the Irish experience was that, well, I'm not black, I'm Irish, so that's what I would have cause to talk about.

Moreover, yes, understanding context is important, and again, I don't think anyone is saying it isn't. It is the application of that context that is at debate here. Because there are a lot of different reactions people can have TO that context, and some of those reactions are more productive than others.

Ilikesausage wrote: [quote=guru]When the police start shooting Irish people 40 and 50 times in the street and Irish grandmothers are shot in their own homes by the state then the history will not matter because it will no longer be present.

Yes, becuase the police exceute and gun down Black people in cold blood every day.

Between Guliani and Bloomberg, there have been maybe 20 high-profile killings of black men by the police. At minimum, Twice as many NYPD cops have lost their lives to said Black men in that same time period.
It is the low profile hourly assault that really concerns most black men in these United States. 20 high profile murders should offend even you.

BassPlaya wrote: [quote=queencallipygos]I don't recall saying that I was making any comparision between the Irish and black experience as such, actually. The only reason I mentioned being Irish and discussing the Irish experience was that, well, I'm not black, I'm Irish, so that's what I would have cause to talk about.

Yeah, but you seem to be dodging the issue since it was pointed out how the Irish experience here is different than the black experience. It is okay if you are uncomfortable talking about race in any real kind of way. You can manage to inslulate yourself from any real interaction with black people and maintain your stereotypical views.

I'm not "dodging" the fact that the Irish and black experiences are different, I'm saying that the fact that those two experiences are different are tangential to my ultimate point.

And that ultimate point is: different as the Irish and black expeirences were, there are still similarities -- each suffered at the hands of some other group. Yes, there are differences in the type of suffering, and yes, there are differences in the degree of suffering, but each did suffer at the hands of some other group. And, the same can be said of many other groups.

So. Suppose we all learn all there is to know about the context of each individual person's history of ethnic suffering. oKay, now everyone knows that.

My point is, now that you've done that, what is the next step you take after that?

Moreover, yes, understanding context is important, and again, I don't think anyone is saying it isn't. It is the application of that context that is at debate here. Because there are a lot of different reactions people can have TO that context, and some of those reactions are more productive than others.

What's the "application" that's in debate here? It seems that if YOU grew up in some of conditions mentioned and were denied opportunity because of your whiteness you may be singing a different tune.

What I mean by "application" is: suppose we all, across the board, educate ourselves down to the last jot and tittle about every ethnic group's experience. ...Now that we've done that, now what? I've read what you've posted, and I'm not clear exactly what you expect people to do now.

Just...be aware of this? I'd actually already been aware of this.

Lobby our Congressmen for reparations to African-Americans? Well, before we do that -- in the words of my Mexican-American roommate, "I think the fact that the Conquistadores tried to kill us all outright might be a bigger claim." Would we be taking care of that first?

Lobbying our city to improve the quality of our police force? Okay, but what do you say to the people who say that such an action can lead to "snitching"?

Taking steps to improve the quality of our communities on a grass-roots level? Well....that's what this article in the original post was about in the first place.

My question is, there are many things that we each can do with that information after we have it, and I just feel some are more productive than others. Do you agree? If so, then might it not stand to reason that it is one's actions rather than one's awareness that is the truest test of a person?

...If so, then if it is one actions as opposed to one's awareness, then can we simply not urge each other to treat each other decently not because of specific past racial inequities, but rather, can we simply not treat each other decently because it is the right thing to do?

Please research what is going on in Jena, USA way back in 2007 about 500 minutes ago. The black kids had the nerve to sit under the "traditionally" white tree now they are facing life in prison. Very intersesting story to remind the young ones about ... oh yeah they are LIVING IT!

The situation in Jena is clearly fucked up. Having said that, please consider that the young black men allegedly jumped the victim from behind, knocking him unconscious with the first punch. At which point they stomped and kicked the shit out of him on the ground. Does the fact that his idiot buddies looped nooses on a tree make that OK? Also consider that the convicted youth has four prior violent convictions within the last year or so before this attack. It is a fact that this was considered in both charges and punishment.

Having said that, I would agree that there is clearly a miscarriage of "justice" going on in Jena that needs to be addressed pronto by any and all means possible. I don't think, however, that simply freeing the young black man is the proper solution. It is a bit more complex than that.

Ilikesausage wrote: Since another cop has been shot in the Bronx, we'll see if Jesse/Al/Barrone have something to say...

Cops know their job is dangerous and they get paid to do that job, the people that don't want the risk associated with the job don't take it.

Anyway, Bassplaya, why are you being so heavy? Irish and Black experiences do have simliarites. Irish people were sold for less than Blacks. Also, some Blacks did earn their freedom like Irish did.

You can't possibly be this ignorant of history, or can you?

And even all that notwithstanding, how come we never hear about how the CEOs of Merril Lynch and American Express are black? Or all the majority black wealthy hoods?

Interesting you should bring up Merrill Lynch...

They have a couple of discrimination cases currently on the front burner.

Just because they have a Black CEO now, doesn't mean they don't have a culture of white male supremacy. And what is your point anyway?

http://card.wordpress.com/2006/11/08/sixteen-plaintiffs-join-merrill-lynch-anti-black-racial-bias-lawsuit/

According to the amended complaint, Merrill perpetuates a hostile, “white male dominated culture” by limiting African-American brokers’ access to wealthy clients and letting bias claims slide.

It also accused Merrill of illegally pandering to “what it presumes are its racist clients,” saying “an employer violates the law when it acquiesces, accedes to or perpetuates perceived customer bias.”

And as for reminding the young ones about slavery, why? Is Slavery going to be any less evil 100 years from now? How about 500? 1000? 1,000,000? What good does it do other than to keep the cycle of hate alive? Are you going to be blaming your behavior on slavery 500 years from now? I guess so.

Young black people need to know why for no reason other than the color of their skin they may be denied equal access and be unable to take the same things for granted that white people do without even thinking.

queencallipygos wrote:
And that ultimate point is: different as the Irish and black expeirences were, there are still similarities -- each suffered at the hands of some other group. Yes, there are differences in the type of suffering, and yes, there are differences in the degree of suffering, but each did suffer at the hands of some other group. And, the same can be said of many other
groups.

That's true, however the Irish have ascended to "whiteness" and that makes a big difference.

So. Suppose we all learn all there is to know about the context of each individual person's history of ethnic suffering. oKay, now everyone knows that.

My point is, now that you've done that, what is the next step you take after that?

Think about it in terms of a guy who interacts with a woman that's been battered or raped. Without knowledge of what has happened to her there may be some things that he's oblivious of with respect to his actions, mannerism or speech that would make her feel uncomfortable or even threatened.

What I mean by "application" is: suppose we all, across the board, educate ourselves down to the last jot and tittle about every ethnic group's experience. ...Now that we've done that, now what? I've read what you've posted, and I'm not clear exactly what you expect people to do now.

Just...be aware of this? I'd actually already been aware of this.

In an ideal world we become more empathetic which is usually a good thing.

Lobby our Congressmen for reparations to African-Americans? Well, before we do that -- in the words of my Mexican-American roommate, "I think the fact that the Conquistadores tried to kill us all outright might be a bigger claim." Would we be taking care of that first?

So because there are so many people that are wronged the right thing to do is nothing? A simple apology would actually go a long way.

Lobbying our city to improve the quality of our police force? Okay, but what do you say to the people who say that such an action can lead to "snitching"?

As in "If you see something say something?"

I've read it in a few places, here is one that came up first on google:
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070825/NEWS03/708250353/1062/NEWS03

According to court documents, someone hit Barker from behind, knocking him out, then others began to kick and stomp his "lifeless" body. He spent about three hours in a local emergency room for treatment of injuries to his head and face.

Three months prior to that attack, Bell committed two violent crimes while on probation for a battery Christmas Day 2005, according to testimony. Later that same week, he led the Jena Giants to a shutout victory in a football game against the Buckeye Panthers. Bell was adjudicated — the juvenile equivalent to a conviction — of battery Sept. 2 and criminal damage to property Sept. 3, said Cynthia Bradford, LaSalle Parish deputy clerk.

I hesitate to even post this, I want to make it clear that I in NO WAY think that a prior criminal history makes what is going on there OK in any way. Let me reiterate that I believe there is a serious miscarriage of justice going on there. I'm just trying to point out that this one isn't as cut and dried as some would have you believe, unfortunately.

Annoyed?! Is that you?!


I've been on here too long...