Election 2008: So is Hillary Clinton finished?
Comments
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Private DNC negotiations are apparently underway for more realistic plans for recognizing and seating Michigan and Florida delegates, according to reports from Time Magazine:
Time Magazine sources wrote:
I think he should just take it to avoid any further madness, especially since he already has a significant margin across the boards (it's not like the 19+ delegates that would net her way would put her over the top, or even *that* much closer).
–Michigan’s 156 delegates would be split 50-50 between Clinton and Obama.
–Florida’s existing delegates would be seated at the Denver convention—but with half a vote each. That would give Clinton a net gain of about 19 elected delegates.
– The two states’ superdelegates would then be able to vote in Denver, likely netting Clinton a few more delegates.
The betting: Florida and Michigan delegates, the DNC, and the Clinton campaign would all — some reluctantly– accept this deal.
Then it would be over to you, Barack Obama.
Sometimes it's best to take the recommendations of 3rd parties, when it's clear that they recommend a compromise for both sides (not just one).
Would be great to take what other neutral parties deem to be fair and just move on. -
jaha127 wrote: Keith Olbermann is echoing some of your points.
Along similar lines:
A Brown Woman's Open Letter to Geraldine Ferraro & the Clinton CampaignLaAbogada wrote: You said: "He happens to be very lucky to be who he is"
Obama's schooling and professional achievements stand way out above anyone else in the race, without question. (can provide comparison, if anyone cares...and it is utterly definitive)
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It reminded me of when I was 17 years old sitting in my AP Calculus class, and a "friend" in "congratulating" me for being accepted into a prestigious undergraduate institution told me how "you’re so lucky that you’re last name is ______." Because of course, to him, my higher test scores and higher GPA were nothing in balance to my Spanish surname.
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Geraldine Ferraro you also said this: "If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position."
This reminded me of how after my success and confidence as an undergrad finally outgrew my "affirmative-action-baby-complex," (for lack of a better term) that little did I know, I would be confronted with it over and over again no matter how great and how successful my accomplishments were. I, as a woman of color, know what it feels like for someone to not find it conceivable for you to be where you are.
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Lastly, let’s talk about this: "And if he was a woman (of any color) he would not be in this position."
The entirety of your statements inherently tells me that in your eyes: a woman of color is at the bottom of your expectations totem pole. That as a brown woman, no matter what future successes I may achieve, people like you will always have some other excuse or justification based on my gender and race for such accomplishments.
And the phenomenal organizational ability, poise, and yes...cross-partisan inspiration, in the campaign far surpass anyone else out there, coming from the back of the pack even as Clinton was the de-facto nominee all along, with huge funding and front-loaded political favors (read: up-front governor and superdelegate endorsements, local politico and political machines backing) to call in.
Casting aside the obnoxious nature of Ferrarro's assertions for a moment, they simply make no sense.
He has earned his position in magna cum laude form (if you will...) at every level of his career. His election to US Senate may have been a very lucky combination of circumstances, but as my father often says..."Luck itself means little. Being extremely well prepared for when luck strikes means everything." Obama had all the right top-notch educational pedigree, accomplishments and community organizational experience to make him exactly the right person when local political circumstances were in need of one.
That's not luck. That's hard work and discipline. Okay, with some occasional drug use on the side.
Sad that someone would neglect this and say that he's merely an undeserving token choice put forth for mere historic value (as Clinton is in the political sphere, oddly enough). -
I will amend that last parenthetical comment above to state that I do believe she is accomplished as a corporate attorney defending large companies against law suits (as was the majority of her lifetime of experience that she claims).
You don't get appointed to the boards of huge companies like Wal-Mart etc. unless you are exceptionally talented in that area.
I just don't see how that experience applies to representing the public.
In fact, a trial lawyer like John Edwards would appear to argue the exact opposite. -
witch-king wrote: rather than rehashing 1980s style identity politics, which never had an objective grip on reality, it would be better to drop gender and race coded arguments altogether.
that's nice, except ... guess what? gender and race coded arguments are part of REALITY. and while, yes, 1980s style identity politics were definitely geared toward a certain wealth-class, thus ignoring the needs of other wealth-classes and, adversely, races, the issues addressed in the 80's stand out even more starkly in this day and age. and now that race has further involved itself in the mix, which is good, these issues have taken on a level of complexity that most people would prefer to ignore. hence your comment. it's tiring to believe that folks really think race, class, gender and other status have no bearing on their own decision making, much less the decision making of other folks around them. and that, my friend, is an objective grip on reality. -
Subject: Re: The broad brush that still paints within the lines....
SevenOneEighty wrote: No, I wasn’t assuming all white women over 60, including your mother, are racist.
I should think the fact that Ferraro is no longer part of the Clinton machine to be more of an indicator that Clinton is NOT about Ferraro's views. Because, if you boil the situation down -- Ferraro said something dumb and got sacked for it (sure, it says she resigned, but how much you want to be that she was talked into that resignation?). Even if it was for appearances' sake, that indicates to me that Clinton is trying to say that that kind of view is not what she's about.
Didn’t meant to insinuate that at all.
I was stating that Hillary’s core demographic is people like Ferraro (age and race, etc.). That’s just true. – those are the folks voting for her and the demographic most loyal to her (yes there are others as well but she solidly holds the geriatric, white crowd over Obama). No, people who dislike Obama politcally are not racist. But if while describing your dislike for his policy, experience and qualifications, you bring up his race – when it has NOTHING to do with the topics at hand …there could be a connection between a critic and racism. Especially if a pattern emerges over time. Ferraro was trying to say something profound, she came off sounding like “Jimmy the Greek”; It was clumsy.
Ferraro's the age of the demographic you refer to, but Clinton seems to be saying something else about the viewpoints. -
white house documents give some insight into hillary clinton's foreign policy experience.
Clinton a long way from the White House at key foreign policy moments
Daniel Nasaw in Washington
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday March 19 2008
On the day that dozens of US cruise missiles rained down on Serbia in an attempt to punish Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic for the country's onslaught against ethnic Albanian separatists in Kosovo, first lady Hillary Clinton was far from the White House war room: instead she was touring ancient Egyptian ruins, including King Tut's tomb and the temple of Hatshepsut. And on the day before the signing of the Good Friday agreement in Belfast she was at an event called "Hats on for Bella" in Washington.
In her bid for the Democratic presidential nomination, Hillary Clinton has touted her experience in the Clinton White House as preparation to lead the nation in a time of crisis. "Ready on day one" has been her slogan.
But an initial reading of some of the more than 11,000 pages of Clinton's schedules from her days as first lady, released today by the National Archives and the William Jefferson Clinton Presidential Library, shows that she was often far from the site of decision-making during some of the most pivotal events of Bill Clinton's presidency.
Clinton, who was an accomplished attorney and first lady of Arkansas before moving to the White House, frequently claims more than 30 years experience in public life, contrasting herself with Barack Obama's slimmer resume - he served several years in the Illinois legislature and was elected to the US Senate in 2004.
The Clinton campaign claimed on Wednesday that the release of the papers would show Clinton to have been an influential advocate at home and around the world on behalf of the US. But the documents from her office in the White House threaten to undermine her claim to have played a major role in Clinton's foreign policy decisions.
For instance, Clinton has said she helped negotiate the April 1998 Good Friday agreement between warring factions in Northern Ireland. But while Catholic and Protestant figures hashed out last-minute details of a power-sharing agreement in Belfast, Clinton was at the National Press Club in Washington at a party honouring Bella Abzug, a congresswoman from New York City who had died recently. While President Clinton phoned major participants in the peace talks, she met with Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel and joined a farewell party for Democratic operative Karen Finney. On the day the agreement was actually signed, she met with Philippine first lady Amelita Ramos.
When Nato launched air strikes against Serbia in an attempt to punish Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic for the country's onslaught against ethnic Albanian separatists in Kosovo, Clinton toured ancient Egyptian ruins, including King Tut's tomb and the temple of Hatshepsut. She dined at the Temple of Luxor, and stayed overnight at the Sofitel Winter Palace Hotel there.
There are other key foreign policy dates when the record is not so clear: on the day the presidents of three Balkan states signed a peace agreement in Dayton, Ohio, in November 1995, ending years of ethnic violence in the former Yugoslavia, Clinton's file lists no public schedule for that day, but indicates she was in Washington.
The documents' release on Wednesday came in response to a conservative organisation's freedom of information request and subsequent lawsuit. The records include schedules from nearly 3,000 days Clinton was in the White House, and detail meetings, trips, speaking engagements and social activities.
Bruce Lindsey, a Little Rock attorney and long time Clinton confidant, vetted the pages prior their release. He and national archives staff checked the documents for information sensitive to national security and law enforcement matters.
Nearly a third of the pages have redactions, most of which the archives said were made to protect the privacy of Clinton's associates. The redacted material includes home addresses, telephone numbers and social security numbers, the archives said.
Christopher Farrell, director of investigations and research with Judicial Watch, the organisation behind the two-year-long legal effort to win the documents' release, said he doesn't anticipate finding any "smoking gun" within the reams of pages.
He said Lindsey "has enormous discretion" to redact information potentially damaging to Clinton's White House bid. "My expectations are quite low."
Hillary Clinton was present in the White House, however, for at least one significant event of the Clinton presidency. On November 15 1995, when President Clinton is said to have begun his affair with White House intern Monica Lewinsky, she was in the White House, according to her schedule. -
From The Nation
18 wrote: Clinton Lie Kills Her Credibility on Trade Policy[/size]
John Nichols
Thu Mar 20, 1:59 PM ET
The Nation -- What is the proper word for the claim by Hillary Clinton and the more factually disinclined supporters of her campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination -- made in speeches, briefings and interviews (including one by this reporter with the candidate) -- that she has always been a critic of the North American Free Trade Agreement?
Now that we know from the 11,000 pages of Clinton White House documents released this week that former First Lady was an ardent advocate for NAFTA; now that we know she held at least five meetings to strategize about how to win congressional approval of the deal; now that we know she was in the thick of the manuevering to block the efforts of labor, farm, environmental and human rights groups to get a better agreement. Now that we know all of this, how should we assess the claim that Hillary's heart has always beaten to a fair-trade rhythm?
Now that we know from official records of her time as First Lady that Clinton was the featured speaker at a closed-door session where 120 women opinion leaders were hectored to pressure their congressional representatives to approve NAFTA; now that we know from ABC News reporting on the session that "her remarks were totally pro-NAFTA" and that "there was no equivocation for her support for NAFTA at the time;" now that we have these details confirmed, what should we make of Clinton's campaign claim that she was never comfortable with the militant free-trade agenda that has cost the United States hundreds of thousands of union jobs, that has idled entire industries, that has saddled this country with record trade deficits, undermined the security of working families in the US and abroad, and has forced Mexican farmers off their land into an economic refugee status that ultimately forces them to cross the Rio Grande River in search of work?
As she campaigns now, Clinton says, "I have been a critic of NAFTA from the very beginning."
But the White House records confirm that this is not true.
Her statement is, to be precise, a lie.
When it comes to the essential test of the trade debate, Clinton has been identified as a liar -- a put-in-boldface-type "L-I-A-R" liar.
Those of us who covered the 1993 NAFTA debate have frequently expressed doubts about the former First Lady's recent statements. We never heard anything at the time about her dissenting from the Clinton Administration line on trade policy. And we knew that she had defended NAFTA in the years following its enactment. But fairness required that we at least entertain that notion--promoted by the lamentable David Gergen, himself a champion of free-trade policies while working in the Clinton White House--that Hillary Clinton had been a behind-the-scenes critic. We had to at least consider the possibility that, at the very least, Clinton had been worried that advancing NAFTA would trip up her advocacy for health care reform, that she had made her concerns known and that she had absented herself from pro-NAFTA lobbying.
This was certainly the impression that Clinton and her supporters sought to create as she campaigned in Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Indiana--states where worried workers want to know exactly where the candidates have stood and currently stand with regard to trade issues.
But that impression was a deliberate deception.
And we must all now recognize that when Hillary Clinton speaks about trade policy, she begins with a lie so blatant--that she's been "a critic of NAFTA from the very beginning"--that everything else she says must be viewed as suspect. -
The problem with all of this "experience" is that it leaves a paper trail all the way back to 1992.
It's about to get ugly.Real ugly.
This is the tip of the ice berg.
Now that her white house records have been released, people are going to be scouring through all of this information to use against her. Don't be surprised if Monica makes an appearance on your local station or blog.
A 12 y.o. in 2008 has more access to information than to a 55 y.o. in 1993 thanks to Google, Yahoo, and iTunes.
More to come... -
Just a prediction:
Give it a week, and there will be reports everywhere of her resignation and concession by the following Tuesday. -
jeffrey wrote: Just a prediction:
I wish, but I doubt that will happen. She will hold out until the bitter end, even if she has no realistic chance, and even if it plays into McCain's hands. At this point I'm convinced that she'd rather McCain won (allowing her to run against him in 2012) than Obama.
Give it a week, and there will be reports everywhere of her resignation and concession by the following Tuesday. -
Well, aside from the insurmountable delegate and popular votes lead (especially since FL and MI won't go to another vote), her campaign finished February in the red, and she's down to just $3 million in the bank now (whereas Obama has $30 million left).
But aside from that, regarding my prediction of reports of her resignation coming out on the Tues after next week...
Any particular reason that comes to mind as to why that might still happen anyway?
:twisted: :?: -
white:5f09e9d67e wrote: April Fool's?[/color]
Edited to remove spoiler (highlight to read). -
Ding! Aaaand we have a winnahhhh.
<applause>
But your response should have been a non-spoiler, like the new classic:
Oh, I see what you did there.

***edited to remove spoiler, too...
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I'm not so sure I beleive this because the longer this thing drags on, the more momentum she can build. We still don't really know how the whole "Wright" thing will play out for Obama. If she can get the delegate lead to under 100 or 80 and catch him in the popular vote and if Obama is shown to be damaged by all of the "race" stuff...
Either way, it is going to be really messy to the end.
It would surprise me if she quit. She is going all the way to the convention.
Hey, Hillary 2012!
POLITICO: 'Clinton has virtually no chance of winning'..
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9149.html
Story behind the story: The Clinton myth
By JIM VANDEHEI & MIKE ALLEN | 3/21/08 1:32 PM EST
Clinton's campaign rests increasingly on a game of make-believe.
One big fact has largely been lost in the recent coverage of the Democratic presidential race: Hillary Rodham Clinton has virtually no chance of winning.
Her own campaign acknowledges there is no way that she will finish ahead in pledged delegates. That means the only way she wins is if Democratic superdelegates are ready to risk a backlash of historic proportions from the party’s most reliable constituency.
Unless Clinton is able to at least win the primary popular vote — which also would take nothing less than an electoral miracle — and use that achievement to pressure superdelegates, she has only one scenario for victory. An African-American opponent and his backers would be told that, even though he won the contest with voters, the prize is going to someone else.
People who think that scenario is even remotely likely are living on another planet.
As it happens, many people inside Clinton’s campaign live right here on Earth. One important Clinton adviser estimated to Politico privately that she has no more than a 10 percent chance of winning her race against Barack Obama, an appraisal that was echoed by other operatives.
In other words: The notion of the Democratic contest being a dramatic cliffhanger is a game of make-believe.
Politico’s top editors draw on their experience at the nation's largest news organizations to pull back the curtain on coverage decisions and the media mindset.
The real question is why so many people are playing. The answer has more to do with media psychology than with practical politics.
Journalists have become partners with the Clinton campaign in pretending that the contest is closer than it really is. Most coverage breathlessly portrays the race as a down-to-the-wire sprint between two well-matched candidates, one only slightly better situated than the other to win in August at the national convention in Denver.
One reason is fear of embarrassment. In its zeal to avoid predictive reporting of the sort that embarrassed journalists in New Hampshire, the media — including Politico — have tended to avoid zeroing in on the tough math Clinton faces.
Avoiding predictions based on polls even before voters cast their ballots is wise policy. But that's not the same as drawing sober and well-grounded conclusions about the current state of a race after millions of voters have registered their preferences.
The antidote to last winter's flawed predictions is not to promote a misleading narrative based on the desired but unlikely story line of one candidate.
There are other forces also working to preserve the notion of a contest that is still up for grabs.
One important, if subliminal, reason is self-interest. Reporters and editors love a close race — it’s more fun and it’s good for business.
The media are also enamored of the almost mystical ability of the Clintons to work their way out of tight jams, as they have done for 16 years at the national level. That explains why some reporters are inclined to believe the Clinton campaign when it talks about how she’s going to win on the third ballot at the Democratic National Convention in August.
That’s certainly possible — and, to be clear, we’d love to see the race last that long — but it’s folly to write about this as if it is likely.
It’s also hard to overstate the role the talented Clinton camp plays in shaping the campaign narrative, first by subtly lowering the bar for the performance necessary to remain in the race, and then by keeping the focus on Obama’s relationships with a political fixer and a controversial pastor in Illinois.
But even some of Clinton’s own advisers now concede that she cannot win unless Obama is hit by a political meteor. Something that merely undermines him won't be enough. It would have to be some development that essentially disqualifies him.
Simple number-crunching has shown the long odds against Clinton for some time.
In the latest Associated Press delegate count, Obama leads with 1,406 pledged delegates to Clinton’s 1,249. Obama’s lead is likely to grow, as it did with county conventions last weekend in Iowa, as later rounds of delegates are apportioned from caucuses he has already won.
The Democratic Party has 794 superdelegates, the party insiders who get to vote on the nomination in addition to the delegates chosen by voters. According to Politico's latest tally, Clinton has 250 and Obama has 212. That means 261 are uncommitted, and 71 have yet to be named.
An analysis by Politico's Avi Zenilman shows that Clinton’s lead in superdelegates has shrunk by about 60 in the past month. And it found Clinton is roughly tied among House members, senators and governors — the party’s most powerful elite.
Clinton had not announced a new superdelegate commitment since the March 4 primaries, until the drought was broken recently by Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) and West Virginia committeeman Pat Maroney.
Clintonistas continue to talk tough. Phil Singer, the Clinton campaign’s deputy communications director, told reporters on a conference call Friday that the Obama campaign “is in hot water” and is “seeing the ground shift away from them.”
Mark Penn, the campaign’s chief strategist, maintained that it’s still “a hard-fought race between two potential nominees” and that other factors could come into play at the convention besides the latest delegate tally — “the popular vote, who will have won more delegates from primaries [as opposed to caucuses], who will be the stronger candidate against McCain.”
But let’s assume a best-case scenario for Clinton, one where she wins every remaining contest with 60 percent of the vote (an unlikely outcome since she has hit that level in only three states so far — her home state of New York, Rhode Island and Arkansas).
Even then, she would still be behind Obama in delegates.
There are 566 pledged delegates up for grabs in upcoming contests. Those delegates come from Pennsylvania (158), Guam (4) North Carolina (115), Indiana (72), West Virginia (28 ), Kentucky (51), Oregon (52), Puerto Rico (55), Montana (16) and South Dakota (15).
If Clinton won 60 percent of those delegates, she would get 340 delegates to Obama's 226. Under that scenario — and without revotes in Michigan and Florida — Obama would still lead in delegates by 1,632 to 1,589.
The only remote possibility of a win in delegates would come if revotes were held in Florida and Michigan — which, again, would take a political miracle. If Clinton won 60 percent of the delegates in both states, she would win 188 delegates and Obama would win 125. Clinton would then lead among pledged delegates, 1,777 to 1,757.
The other elephant in the room for Clinton is that Obama is almost certain to win North Carolina, with its high percentage of African-American voters, and also is seen as extremely strong in Oregon.
Harold Ickes, an icon of the Democratic Party who is Clinton’s chief delegate strategist, points out that every previous forecast about this race has been faulty.
Asked about the Obama campaign’s contention that it’s mathematically impossible for Clinton to win, Ickes replied: “They can’t count. At the end of it, even by the Obama campaign’s prediction, neither candidate will have enough delegates to be nominated.” -
it's the confirmation that FL and MI will not re-vote that has in effect put the nail in the coffin for Hillary. If they did re-vote, and she picked up PA, behind wins in TX and OH, then wins in FL and MI, she would have serious momentum, and her big-state argument, in spite of Obama's delegate lead.
Bill Richardson's endorsement is a huge symbolic moment, in my opinion -- he's very close to the Clinton's, worked for Bill's administration, and was perceived to be defending Hillary in the debates and vying for a VP spot on her ticked just two months ago. If he's making the switch, it's hard to imagine many uncommitted superdelegates not following suit.
It'd be nice if the media turned it's attention to McCain's gaffs. -
Back to the heavy swinging bat of all the foreign affairs policy experience she claims to trump Obama with...
Looks like Sinbad isn't the only one able to refute Clinton's claims of trip to Bosnia for peace negotiations, arriving under cover of sniper fire.
First, the exact words of her speech, from her web site:Hillary Clinton's speech, as found on her own web site wrote:
(also used to beat up Obama in debates and other campaign statements, ads and materials)
I certainly do remember that trip to Bosnia, and as Togo said, there was a saying around the White House that if a place was too small, too poor, or too dangerous, the president couldn't go, so send the First Lady. That’s where we went.
I remember landing under sniper fire. There was supposed to be some kind of a greeting ceremony at the airport, but instead we just ran with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base. But it was a moment of great pride for me to visit our troops, not only in our main base as Tuzla, but also at two outposts where they were serving in so many capacities to deactivate and remove landmines, to hunt and seek out those who had not complied with the Dayton Accords and put down their arms, and to build relationships with the people that might lead to a peace for them and their children.
So what really happened?
Let's go to the video tape...
Ouch. So, of her claims (now being vetted by the media via her *finally* now-released White House papers), and since Ireland peace process claims were tossed and scoffed at by the Irish themselves, what is actually true?
It's one [lame] thing to doctor-up one's resume with bs, but a whole 'nuther thing to use it to beat up the other candidate.
Old politics, meet interwebs. There is now very little ability to delude and escape the emerging and far-reaching memory collective.
Like I said before, she went after the wrong messages, the wrong advisors, and the wrong overall perspective.
Would have been an entirely different game had she developed her own approach as evolved from her own personal story and strengths, instead of shifting between attacking and emulating the messages and personae of others.
That would have been a great race. -
From Politico...
"One big fact has largely been lost in the recent coverage of the Democratic presidential race: Hillary Rodham Clinton has virtually no chance of winning …
The notion of the Democratic contest being a dramatic cliffhanger is a game of make-believe." -
Livetotravel wrote: From Politico...
Look up 3 posts above yours.
"One big fact has largely been lost in the recent coverage of the Democratic presidential race: Hillary Rodham Clinton has virtually no chance of winning …
The notion of the Democratic contest being a dramatic cliffhanger is a game of make-believe."
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Carnivore wrote: [quote=Livetotravel]From Politico...
Look up 3 posts above yours.
"One big fact has largely been lost in the recent coverage of the Democratic presidential race: Hillary Rodham Clinton has virtually no chance of winning …
The notion of the Democratic contest being a dramatic cliffhanger is a game of make-believe."
:roll: -
a) reasons why I nixed my subscription to the nation years ago and switched to the economist - they hyperinflate b.s.
b) there are similar reports about obama's claims re: his voting record. his take: "I spearheaded!!! zomg!!"; reality: you voted for it.
c) yeah, same thing on clinton's side, obvi.
d) personally, I like the fact that she has a history to sift through.
e) continue gloating. have fun when mccain is elected. -
alafairnadia wrote: continue gloating. have fun when mccain is elected.
Then Clinton can gloat. -
Carnivore wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]continue gloating. have fun when mccain is elected.
Then Clinton can gloat.
doubtful. she is a feminist. and mccain - not. trust me, she does not want that man in office. -
alafairnadia wrote: [quote=Carnivore][quote=alafairnadia]continue gloating. have fun when mccain is elected.
Then Clinton can gloat.
doubtful. she is a feminist. and mccain - not. trust me, she does not want that man in office.
She sure hasn't been acting like it. -
Carnivore wrote: [quote=alafairnadia][quote=Carnivore][quote=alafairnadia]continue gloating. have fun when mccain is elected.
Then Clinton can gloat.
doubtful. she is a feminist. and mccain - not. trust me, she does not want that man in office.
She sure hasn't been acting like it.
and what does that mean? she just wants to win the stupid nomination, if you're referring to her campaigning for ... the nomination.
she definitely doesn't want a misogynistic, anti-choice man in the white house.
what folks need to learn to discern is the difference between the candidate and the candidacy. you're focused on her candidacy - it's ugly - I've said that before and don't really feel like heading down that road again. really, this shit is depressing enough. but clinton has values, and if she doesn't stand by them, she'll lose everyone who is actually supporting her right now. so I have a lot of trust in her to not want mccain as a president. when obama wins the nomination (again, which I've conceded a million times - and, again, enough with acting like I (and folks who think like me - you know more than you believe) are the enemy here), she will support his campaign for president. it'll be interesting to see his camp's graciousness about it, but she will.
my concern? obama's campaign. he's not losing ground to clinton - who cares at this point? (you?) - he's losing ground to mccain! can we focus?? -
alafairnadia wrote: my concern? obama's campaign. he's not losing ground to clinton - who cares at this point? (you?) - he's losing ground to mccain! can we focus??
McCain has already spent over $50 million (in excess of the campaign finance limits that he originally agreed to, then backed out). Clinton, despite having in reality already lost (as you've acknowledged) is not only continuing to campaign, but campaigning in an absolutely negative way, which accomplishes absolutely nothing except to help McCain, giving him additional attacks on Obama at no cost to his bottom line. If you really care so much about Obama's position with respect to McCain, you'd recognize how poisonous Clinton has become to the Democrats' chances. -
Carnivore wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]my concern? obama's campaign. he's not losing ground to clinton - who cares at this point? (you?) - he's losing ground to mccain! can we focus??
McCain has already spent over $50 million (in excess of the campaign finance limits that he originally agreed to, then backed out). Clinton, despite having in reality already lost (as you've acknowledged) is not only continuing to campaign, but campaigning in an absolutely negative way, which accomplishes absolutely nothing except to help McCain, giving him additional attacks on Obama at no cost to his bottom line. If you really care so much about Obama's position with respect to McCain, you'd recognize how poisonous Clinton has become to the Democrats' chances.
not really. she has a few chances and I think if she'd been able to make a deal on the florida and michigan fronts she would have totally shifted the dynamic. right now, she's just playing for the last few states that vote april 22nd. that's her right and I completely respect her for fighting it out to the end - she had a lot of outs. her odds are significantly lower after the weekend re: news on michigan but I still respect her for sticking with it til its done. despite your characterizations, the vote isn't a blow out and, really, she has more blue states than obama which really disguises the electability issue. when it comes down to it, though, she'll do the right thing. and, frankly, the voting public isn't going to remember every little jab. if they did, gwb would never have been elected.
as for obama, he just needs to take care of himself. he's got enough shit in his history that he'll be battling off ex-pastors for weeks if he doesn't figure out how to deal with this stuff in a way that gets people to stfu about it. I mean, do you really think mccain is going to be _nicer_ than clinton? he's not going to pull his punches at all. obama needs his ducks in a row. obama v. clinton is a pretty lame practice round - clinton obviously didn't hire a rowe protge. -
alafairnadia wrote: ...
re: b and c - Sure, politicians puff up their resumes. But inventing whole sections of them, and then using those fabrications to bash the other candidate? (See the whole "Commander in Chief Threshold" fallacy buttressed by complete lies)
b) there are similar reports about obama's claims re: his voting record. his take: "I spearheaded!!! zomg!!"; reality: you voted for it.
c) yeah, same thing on clinton's side, obvi.
d) personally, I like the fact that she has a history to sift through.
re: d - He's been in elected public office much longer than she has, and he released all his personal finances information long ago, whereas she has dodged doing so until most states had voted in primaries in which she benefited from utterly damaging fabrications directly related to and disproven by her actual record (NAFTA, Foreign Policy statements, etc.).
Hearing it suggested that she has more of a record to sift through seems like yet another something passed on as talking points from her camp, and rings with the same [low] level of truthiness (nods to Colbert).
She had my ear early on. Wanted to support her.
But the further the campaign progressed and the further the pressure was put on her, the more lies and untruths we were sold, and the more submarine attacks she pursued.
Problems with this:
1) I don't think all that behavior just goes away once a person is elected, in the safety and security of long-term office. Just the reverse, actually.
2) Just over 5 years ago, we were all sold a bill of goods to advance someone else's agenda, which resulted in this expensive, tragic, paralyzing war.
For my own part, the last thing I am seeking at this point is to put my stock in someone whose first choice when the chips are down is toward lies and deceit and scorched earth.
This is a critical difference I see between Clinton and Obama.
He's far from perfect (and sure, both his and her individual staffers and surrogates are even more prone to unfortunate statements), but the difference I see is that he gets the big stuff right.
They set the usual, obnoxious and divisive traps for him with small stuff and occasionally his response comes down to their level (at which point they claim victory with him "owning the low road," lawl), but on the big issues he has a much calmer, cooler, far more reasoned and strategic responses that stay true to the overall message and long-term vision.
It seems to me that the very last thing I would be looking for at this moment is a candidate who sees little problem in duping the American public just long enough to get something in their agenda passed, regardless of the repercussions.
We've had enough of that, thanks.
Show me someone who, when confronted with extremely damaging and divisive personal attacks, responds not by merely vain escalation, but instead takes the opportunity to elevate the national conversation with far more salient points and issues.
I will vote for them every time.
If somehow it is a Clinton -v- McCain general election, I'll certainly swing my support in to protect supreme court composition (!!!) and other key policy battlegrounds (so to speak...).
Those are simply wayyy to important to me to let go out of spite.
Being realistic, though...I do think it is natural for anyone who's made a personal investment in a candidate and their issues to feel a great sense of disappointment, loss, spite and even some degree of anger if their candidate does not prevail.
Come Election Day, I don't think contrary voter numbers will be anywhere near the levels of hay the press has been making of polls lately.
Issues like these drive readership and advertising, can't blame the media for putting this (and even Wright bs and other things) for wanting to capture the lightning of invective in a bottle.
B*stards.
-
jeffrey wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]...
re: b and c - Sure, politicians puff up their resumes. But inventing whole sections of them, and then using those fabrications to bash the other candidate? (See the whole "Commander in Chief Threshold" fallacy buttressed by complete lies)
b) there are similar reports about obama's claims re: his voting record. his take: "I spearheaded!!! zomg!!"; reality: you voted for it.
c) yeah, same thing on clinton's side, obvi.
d) personally, I like the fact that she has a history to sift through.
re: d - He's been in elected public office much longer than she has, and he released all his personal finances information long ago, whereas she has dodged doing so until most states had voted in primaries in which she benefited from utterly damaging fabrications directly related to and disproven by her actual record (NAFTA, Foreign Policy statements, etc.).
Hearing it suggested that she has more of a record to sift through seems like yet another something passed on as talking points from her camp, and rings with the same [low] level of truthiness (nods to Colbert).
She had my ear early on. Wanted to support her.
But the further the campaign progressed and the further the pressure was put on her, the more lies and untruths we were sold, and the more submarine attacks she pursued.
Problems with this:
1) I don't think all that behavior just goes away once a person is elected, in the safety and security of long-term office. Just the reverse, actually.
2) Just over 5 years ago, we were all sold a bill of goods to advance someone else's agenda, which resulted in this expensive, tragic, paralyzing war.
For my own part, the last thing I am seeking at this point is to put my stock in someone whose first choice when the chips are down is toward lies and deceit and scorched earth.
This is a critical difference I see between Clinton and Obama.
He's far from perfect (and sure, both his and her individual staffers and surrogates are even more prone to unfortunate statements), but the difference I see is that he gets the big stuff right.
They set the usual, obnoxious and divisive traps for him with small stuff and occasionally his response comes down to their level (at which point they claim victory with him "owning the low road," lawl), but on the big issues he has a much calmer, cooler, far more reasoned and strategic responses that stay true to the overall message and long-term vision.
It seems to me that the very last thing I would be looking for at this moment is a candidate who sees little problem in duping the American public just long enough to get something in their agenda passed, regardless of the repercussions.
We've had enough of that, thanks.
Show me someone who, when confronted with extremely damaging and divisive personal attacks, responds not by merely vain escalation, but instead takes the opportunity to elevate the national conversation with far more salient points and issues.
I will vote for them every time.
If somehow it is a Clinton -v- McCain general election, I'll certainly swing my support in to protect supreme court composition (!!!) and other key policy battlegrounds (so to speak...).
Those are simply wayyy to important to me to let go out of spite.
Being realistic, though...I do think it is natural for anyone who's made a personal investment in a candidate and their issues to feel a great sense of disappointment, loss, spite and even some degree of anger if their candidate does not prevail.
Come Election Day, I don't think contrary voter numbers will be anywhere near the levels of hay the press has been making of polls lately.
Issues like these drive readership and advertising, can't blame the media for putting this (and even Wright bs and other things) for wanting to capture the lightning of invective in a bottle.
B*stards.
we agree in a lot of ways.
I'm all for spite - I believe in it. I can also see how clinton used dirty tactics. not going into it - doesn't really matter - just think she knew what she was doing and probably made the best call she could given the data re: the situation.
I know that in personal conversations about this election I have reiterated a million times that I'll vote for the dem candidate, and that chances are it'll be obama, and that I don't have a problem with that. I've also stated a million times that I am a pretty hardcore feminist and for that reason, primarily, I support clinton.
is there anything wrong with that? have I talked to any black men or women about this who have not been obama supporters? no. on both.
I just HATE the idea of people thinking that clinton and obama are so different that if one or the other that isn't their choice gets the nomination they'll vote for mccain. where's the sense in that? I mean, really. -
I just HATE the idea of people thinking that clinton and obama are so different that if one or the other that isn't their choice gets the nomination they'll vote for mccain. where's the sense in that? I mean, really.
No, it's not logical, because they are so similar to each other on issues.
It's obviously completely emotional. But lots of things that don't make sense happen. It's like love - it doesn't always make sense - but it is real, no?
The entire democratic process has been One big emotional, touchy-feely-fest. I like him becuase she's a woman, he's black...etc.,etc...
this has nothing to do with logic.
In the end, the Democratic nominee will also be decided by emotion, feelings and how certain people feel and NOT a Democratic process:
The Democratic Superdelegates.
They will select a nominee based on how they feel about who can win.
Why are you surprised? -
The only I know for certain at this time is that Hil has been complimenting McCain to a degree beyond belief. it's a dumb strategy to give props to the GOP candidate just to diminish the Dem candidate in voters eyes.
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