Patagucci and Park Slope children
Comments
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willregistersoon wrote: KM - one question that I and others have asked you on this thread is where you deem it acceptable to buy clothing from? Where do you buy your kids clothing? What does materialism mean? How do you recognize it? Where can I shop that is not materialistic? You've avoided these questions consistently and I'm very curious to hear your response. Thanks.
I have ignored it because it is irrelevant. Of course I shop. Of course I am a consumer. Materialism to me is a form of competition. It is a keep up with the Joneses attitude that we in Brooklyn used to pretend we were above (those are the Westchester crowd's values not ours). The must strive for the same Lexus SUV that the neighbor just bought, the right membership to the exclusive country club, the "right" ivy league fast tracked preschool, an orange bug-a-boo stroller, the house in the Hamptons in the right zip code--and the right clothes can also be a reflection of this same competitive consumerism.
I don't think I am stating anything ground breaking here.
People as diverse as Gloria Steinem to Dr. Spock have (had) discussed the concerns of materialism and the importance of the cultural values we instill in our kids being the long term solution to our society's current problems. -
kensingtonmom wrote:
Of course its relevant. Haven't you heard of the expression "practice what you preach?" It would be very interesting to hear how you practice what you're preaching here. Unless you do all of your shopping at The Salvation Army you're as guilty as the ones you're criticizing.
I have ignored it because it is irrelevant. Of course I shop. Of course I am a consumer. Materialism to me is a form of competition. It is a keep up with the Joneses attitude that we in Brooklyn used to pretend we were above (those are the Westchester crowd's values not ours). The must strive for the same Lexus SUV that the neighbor just bought, the right membership to the exclusive country club, the "right" ivy league fast tracked preschool, an orange bug-a-boo stroller, the house in the Hamptons in the right zip code--and the right clothes can also be a reflection of this same competitive consumerism. -
escap wrote: if it brings you pleasure to buy nice clothes or a flat screen TV, and you worked to be able to do so, then by all means do so.
I agree. Except that it can only bring you pleasure if you are able to appreciate what you have for what it is, as opposed to how what you have compares with what the guy next door has, what the other kid in your class has, what the people you see on TV have.
That's the difference between "having nice stuff" and materialism. The latter--deriving your sense of self-worth from what you own--is what keeps so many Americans on a ridiculous treadmill of overwork and overconsumption and, ultimately, unhappiness. It's never enough, there's always reason to be dissatisfied, you have a million wants and have lost the ability to distinguish them from needs.
I understand the impulse to say that it's no one else's business but it is: we all have to live in the work and consumer marketplace that these attitudes shape. (Because there is such an expectation that any normal white-collar employee, for instance, wants to work as much as possible to earn as much $$$ as possible, it is harder for professionals to work fewer hours in exchange for less pay, because the work environment is so all-or-nothing.)
And these attitudes are shaped--among other influences--by our parents. Now are those parents any worse in Park Slope than anywhere else? Being one of those parents, I hope not. But if elementary school kids are comparing one another on where their brownstones are, how big they are and how much original detail[!] they have, I'm sorry, that's f___ed up... whether or not it happens everywhere else in the country or not. -
kensingtonmom wrote: I have ignored it because it is irrelevant. Of course I shop. Of course I am a consumer. Materialism to me is a form of competition. It is a keep up with the Joneses attitude that we in Brooklyn used to pretend we were above (those are the Westchester crowd's values not ours). The must strive for the same Lexus SUV that the neighbor just bought, the right membership to the exclusive country club, the "right" ivy league fast tracked preschool, an orange bug-a-boo stroller, the house in the Hamptons in the right zip code--and the right clothes can also be a reflection of this same competitive consumerism.
Did Dr. Spock teach nothing about being "judgemental"?
I don't think I am stating anything ground breaking here.
People as diverse as Gloria Steinem to Dr. Spock have (had) discussed the concerns of materialism and the importance of the cultural values we instill in our kids being the long term solution to our society's current problems.
I know you hate to be analyized, but have you noticed that you consistently determine peoples values simply by their zipcode - with everyone in 'expensive' areas (PS, Westchester, Hamptons, etc) apparently having lesser values (i.e. contibutiong/causing societies "current problems") then you? and for someone who claims to want to be out of the competition of consumerism you sure seem aware of every single item, brand and symbol used to keep score. -
I grew up in Vermont where my father teaches public school. When he started teaching, in 1973, the vast majority of the students in his class were the children of farmers or farm hands. Now, the overwhelming majority of his students are the children of corporate executives and attorneys. Has the makeup of the town changed? Absolutely. Are the children more brand-aware than they were 30 years ago? Probably. It is certain, though, that Park Slope isn't all that different from other parts of the Northeast.
Kensingtonmom writes "I will feel sad the day my kids come home and ask for this brand or that (and I know that day will come as much as I fight it)." When the day comes, though, she has the option of saying no. -
linusvanpelt wrote: I understand the impulse to say that it's no one else's business but it is: we all have to live in the work and consumer marketplace that these attitudes shape. (Because there is such an expectation that any normal white-collar employee, for instance, wants to work as much as possible to earn as much $$$ as possible, it is harder for professionals to work fewer hours in exchange for less pay, because the work environment is so all-or-nothing.) .
I think that is an excellent point. The idea that the American dream is a one size fits all is ONE reason the feminist movement has failed to find solutions to balance work and family. It works better for corporations if we all sheepishly subscribe to it--that way they don't have to fill their books with part timers or job shares. I think time for many AMERICANS does become more important once you have children. The time you give your kids (even or maybe especially the boring dull times, to me, is more important then anything you can buy them) -
One of the Meriam defintions for materialism is:
"a preoccupation with or stress upon material rather than intellectual or spiritual things "
I for one agree this is a bad characteristic. The thing I take issue with is that KM thinks she can judge whether or not someone is materialistic by the cookie they're eating or the brand they wear. She also thinks that you can make judgements about materialism for an entire neighborhood.
You can be rich, buy expensive things, and live in an expensive neighborhood, and still not be materialistic. Materialism is a characterisitc you cannot judge without knowing or speaking to a person.
In her original post she mentioned that the children she saw were well behaved, and sitting quietly with their family eating cookies. I think that this point is much more illustrative than the brand clothes they were wearing. But according to KM, that didn't bother her. Only the brand and price of the cookie mattered. Now I'm starting to rethink who the materialist one here actually is... -
willregistersoon wrote: One of the Meriam defintions for materialism is:
Yes, I see that point and agree with it. I also think that point was made about 150 posts ago; and, seemingly, has been reiterated by several people 150 times since. It begins to get in the way of talking about the larger issue.
"a preoccupation with or stress upon material rather than intellectual or spiritual things "
I for one agree this is a bad characteristic. The thing I take issue with is that KM thinks she can judge whether or not someone is materialistic by the cookie they're eating or the brand they wear....
To me, far more damning was the example of the anon post about kids at PS 321 comparing homes. Does nobody have any thoughts about that?
I mean, clearly, this neighborhood (and NYC) has been in the middle of a huge shift in real-estate prices; it's made a lot of people very rich and a lot of other people very anxious; it's made the dollar value of homes even more of an obsession than it used to be. How does this not get passed on to kids, and can that possibly be a good thing, even if it's not unique to Park Slope? -
WhyFi wrote: [quote=kensingtonmom]I am concerned about materialism and consumerism and the impact on the planet.
:roll: Care to outline how your buying habits have less of an impact than those clad in "Patagucci" clothing?
actually - i admit i have only skimmed through most of the posts - has anyone mentioned that patagonia is a responsible company (as far as companies go) that tries to make an effort towards recycling and giving back to the planet. i mean, as far as i am concerned, it is way less materialistic to buy a jacket for $200 from patagonia - a company trying to make an a positive impact - that will last many years rather than buy some $40 jacket that i will throw away by spring. i also understand that the $200 jacket might not be an option for most people, but that's where the rei outlet sale closeouts are helpful.
atleast it's something, what does target do?:::
http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/contribution/enviro.jsp?OPTION=ENVIRO_ARTICLE_DISPLAY_HANDLER&assetid=1809
also, i currently make less than $20,000/year, support myself 100%, and i have a patagonia jacket & other assorted items, thank-you & don't slap me if you see me on the street. -
linusvanpelt wrote:
Everyone has been so obsessed with real estate for the past few years, so how do you avoid having your kids pick up on this? I don't know. It sort of makes me laugh to think of the PS 321 kids discussing brownstones and property values in the cafeteria, but it is kind of sad too.
To me, far more damning was the example of the anon post about kids at PS 321 comparing homes. Does nobody have any thoughts about that?
I mean, clearly, this neighborhood (and NYC) has been in the middle of a huge shift in real-estate prices; it's made a lot of people very rich and a lot of other people very anxious; it's made the dollar value of homes even more of an obsession than it used to be. How does this not get passed on to kids, and can that possibly be a good thing, even if it's not unique to Park Slope? -
I wish this thread was a rabid dog so I could take it behind the shed and kill it. Out of pity, of course. Poor Sounder.
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linusvanpelt wrote:
Sorry Linus I usually agree with you - but if someone chooses to work 80 weeks b/c they think that having a Lexus [to show off not b/c its a good car] will make them happy (even if it won't) it is none of my buisness;
That's the difference between "having nice stuff" and materialism. The latter--deriving your sense of self-worth from what you own--is what keeps so many Americans on a ridiculous treadmill of overwork and overconsumption and, ultimately, unhappiness. It's never enough, there's always reason to be dissatisfied, you have a million wants and have lost the ability to distinguish them from needs.
I understand the impulse to say that it's no one else's business but it is: we all have to live in the work and consumer marketplace that these attitudes shape. (Because there is such an expectation that any normal white-collar employee, for instance, wants to work as much as possible to earn as much $$$ as possible, it is harder for professionals to work fewer hours in exchange for less pay, because the work environment is so all-or-nothing.)
I also do not agree that an individuals desire to work to death for material possessions skews the work place against those that don't (at least not on a macro level) - if you work at a place where everyone works till 8pm then your right, you leaving at 5 to have work/life balance may not be received well, but there are other jobs, other employers and even self-employment options. I agree that if you work less you very well might not be reward monetarily as well as those that work more but that is the 'balance' you choose to make.
But even if you are right that the materialistic work-acoholic makes life more difficult for less work motivated, the "fix" for this dilema would be far far worse.
As for kids compete on house size - it sucks (just like when kids compete on looks or popularity or intelligence, etc, etc, etc) and unfortunatly it happens at every economic level, and we should try to teach our kids not to do that (but many will anyway -cause kids are kids and they are learning and making mistakes) - but frankly I dont see a fundamental difference if my child was made to feel bad by the Park Slope kids b/c he/she lived in a smaller home then if he/she was made to feel bad by the Kennsington kids b/c he/she was wearing Patagonia. Being excluded sucks for whatever reason - and the basis of exclusion is generally on group being judgemental of another. -
I agree that it's pretty pathetic to want a nicer jacket, tv or car just to impress your neighbors even though you derive little pleasure from the items themselves, and I agree that this sort of envy and insecurity plays a role in shaping consumerism. However, I think that role is exaggerated--ultimately our money is precious to us and we spend it largely on things that we actually take pleasure in, or at least I'd like to think so. And perhaps it's okay to want to turn heads occasionally, or to feel competitive with others now and then (as long as you're not a complete asshole about it). Materialism can be a healthy, positive thing for society--must we really live in communist Russia with gray, ugly buildings and clothes, and no frivolous pleasures? Yikes!
Also, I disagree with the characterization that Americans are overworking in the pursuit of these frivolities, and driving themselves to exhaustion in soulless jobs that they hate, just b/c they must have that Lexus, etc. I myself am a few months away from taking a job that will require a serious commitment of time and energy, and I can tell you that I haven't chosen to enter a field that I loathe and to work like a slave just to have as nice an apt as my friends. Of course, financial security is one important consideration in choosing any job, but a lot of people work crushing hours because they have a genuine passion for what they're doing. For that matter, a lot of people like actors, chefs, Phd candidates and others work 80-100 hours a week and really don't even get paid well at all! Again, competition is not a bad thing--this drive to work hard may take a toll (of course it's not all good either), but it leads to an enormously productive and innovative society, full of new ideas, culture, medicine, technology and ever-increasing prosperity.
Is "happiness" found in a park view condo or a luxury car? Of course not--happiness is found in family, friends, hard work at something you love, a feeling of accomplishment, the creation of something, etc. On the other hand, those material things aren't evil either, and the honest pursuit of them leads to a lot of overall social benefits (and you might even find happiness--or not--along the way). -
Yawn.
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Nice contribution.
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Subject: I'm breaking free of frugality!
As a committed tightwad, I dress my 1-year-old son mostly in hand-me-downs from cousins. What I buy, I get at stoop sales, Costco, or discount stores. But it might be worth the expenditure to get some flashy piece of designer clothing, just to stroll my boy around the neighborhood and enjoy the pinched, schoolmarmish faces made by joyless prunes like Kensington Mom. I haven't really felt the warm thrill of those disapproving frowns from the tight-assed since... geez, since my high school punk years!
Yeah, I'm gonna do it. KM, where do you hang? My son and I will want to promenade there as often as possible. :twisted: -
Ya, me too Penny Pyncha. I just bought my daughter a ridiculously expensive Oilily ensemble for just this purpose. Let's do it.
AND LET'S NOT FORGET THE CATS:
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kensingtonmom wrote: ... I don't think I am stating anything ground breaking here. ...
Why did you post anything at all, then?
I can empathize with K-Mom's point of view. I see those young kids, dandied up and the fancy strollers and the whole getup and I just roll my eyes. Of course, I see the teen-aged punks, dripping with hip-hop and substance-less swagger and I roll my eyes, too. Or the old ladies that inch along the sidewalk, pushing an overloaded cart. The drunks sleeping on the park benches. The students running for the bus. Pretty much everyone. The difference between me and K-Mom is that I don't post my small-minded (but no doubt well-intentioned, in her case [re: her seeming desire for all class boundaries to be erased...] ) thinking on message boards like this... uh, usually. :oops:
This is not about name brands or parenting. The American Dream is just that, a dream. It doesn't exist. What is supposed to set this country apart, however, is the elbow room to pursue such dreams. Unfortunately for the stuffy rich people who tried to interrogate K-Mom out of her bargain-brand socks, that includes letting people like her inveigh on perceived ills, even though she doesn't do anything about them.
Apparently, there is plenty of bandwidth left.
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Subject: Re:
Penny Pyncha wrote: enjoy the pinched, schoolmarmish faces made by joyless prunes like Kensington Mom. I haven't really felt the warm thrill of those disapproving frowns from the tight-assed since... geez, since my high school punk years!:
Thanks Penny Pyncha (I always suspected punks grew up to be conformists in the end and were only trying to piss off mommy).
But sincerely thanks because you have finally made me realize once and for all that the minute someone tries to turn a thread into a dialogue (Linus) about a larger topic there are more people interested in just reverting it back to personal drivel or attempted personal characterizations. So I will use my computer wasting time to read Slate and the Times and stop popping in here. Believe me after the fury my (yes, judgmental) comment raised in people I am sure this will be quite welcome. So carry-on--I think i saw a homeless person on the corner of Garfield today asking for change that you direct your anger at. Meanwhile I'll see if any of the kindergarteners at 321 can recommend a good contractor for some renovations I need---or maybe they can't since I don't live on a Park Block 2 million brownstone? -
I will use my computer wasting time to read Slate and the Times and stop popping in here.
O, you'll be back. In fact, you're reading this right now. -
Subject: Re:
kensingtonmom wrote: ...you have finally made me realize once and for all that the minute someone tries to turn a thread into a dialogue (Linus) about a larger topic there are more people interested in just reverting it back to personal drivel or attempted personal characterizations. So I will use my computer wasting time to read Slate and the Times and stop popping in here. ...
Why are you turning the crash-and-burn of your thesis into an indictment of the people who post here? The take-your-ball-and-go-home gambit is almost as silly as if-you-don't-like-it,-then-move. Were you really looking for a dialectic on materialism? Or did you just want to jab a sharp stick at your former neighbors? :roll: -
just a few thoughts: if i had kids and wanted to dress one (no matter if i wanted gap or sears or hanna anderson, for that matter) i'd hit the thousands of stoop sales every summer... tons of amazing, designer kids (and grown-up) clothes... can you tell me that EVERY ONE of the children you're seeing wearing the fancy schmancy designer clothes bought them retail in the store? no, you can't.
re: not having the clothes other kids had. don't start me on this. i didn't have barbies or an easy bake oven, or the clothes the other kids had--and that was because my mom didn't want to shop at places like mandee because she thought it was cheap--and it made me feel sad and picked on. 8 hours a day of being in school and being picked on can take an emotional toll, and no matter how much you love your child and tell him/her how amazing, etc., they are, those emotional wounds take a long time to heal.
finally... today i am wearing: leather and lizard justin cowboy boots (retail $200), lucky brand jeans (@ $109), a tissue thin t-neck from the gap ($28), a TSE cashmere sweater (@$400-$500), and an ecko-red down full length coat ($200? $300?)... all tolled, i spent under $40 for this outfit. if you saw me, would you know i didn't spent more than a grand on this oh-so-fancy outfit? -
just a few thoughts: if i had kids and wanted to dress one (no matter if i wanted gap or sears or hanna anderson, for that matter) i'd hit the thousands of stoop sales every summer... tons of amazing, designer kids (and grown-up) clothes... can you tell me that EVERY ONE of the children you're seeing wearing the fancy schmancy designer clothes bought them retail in the store? no, you can't.
Very true. One of my aunts used to dress her kids in clothes that were upscale for her area, but she found them at garage sales for less than a quarter of the retail price.
[snip]
... all tolled, i spent under $40 for this outfit. if you saw me, would you know i didn't spent more than a grand on this oh-so-fancy outfit?
But I think this also raises the point of how you want to spend your time. I remember her saying "Men say women shop all the time, but the only way you're going to find good deals is get out there." Someone way upthread mentioned that the #1 pasttime in America is shopping - couldn't some of that be from a desire to save money on needed or desired items?
I hate to shop, and would rather pay full price in a store where I know I'll be able to find something that fits (I wear petite sizes) than spend hours looking through discount racks and find nothing to wear. But my free time is limited, so any I have is precious to me. And there are so many choices, it can be overwhelming to shop for something. When I know X brand works for me - in clothing, toothpaste, whatever - I look for it because that makes my life easier. I suppose that may be true for some of the other folks - if they know the brand and can afford it, they don't have to spend too much time and energy thinking about what to buy. -
sprite, beacon's closet has amazing designer and trendy stuff and there isn't THAT much to look through. the jeans are pretty well organized by size as well, so if you happen to know you wear an XX in levis or luckys or ann taylor, you can head directly to that section.
and i tend to stock up when places like drugstore.com have sales on my shampoo and toothpaste, etc.
it's really about wanting to stray off your normal beaten path. this isn't meant to be snitty at all, so please don't take it that way (i'm too tired to rephrase)...: i'm a full-time artist and i'm working 7 days a week and it's holiday so things are even more insane, but i've been able to tuck some time in there to do a little shopping.
i also try to combine as many chores as i can, which helps. i do what i call cardio vaccuuming, where you wear your heart monitor while you're cleaning and vaccuuming, kills two birds with one stone. -
Thought this article was perfect for this discussion
http://nymag.com/nymetro/shopping/fashion/columns/look/15109/index.html -
My Park Slope child got Patagonia from relatives for Xmas last year.
While I agree that Americans in general are becoming more materialistic in some ways and that Park Slope has experienced an economic shift towards the affluent, why, KM, are you allowed to judge these people whom you know nothing about other than superficialities while complaining that you should not be "psychologically profiled" whilst leaving much more grist for which to be judged yourself? -
The issue here is that the parents dressing their kids in designer gear likely can afford to do so and have no need to rummage through sweaty, musty gear in stoop sales. What is WRONG with you people??? Some people are richer than you and they have a right to spend their own money as they wish. Just suck it up and move on. This thread is fucking ridiculous. Don't you have more meaningful things to talk/think about???????????????????????
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Don't you have more meaningful things to talk/think about???????????????????????
Sure thing, boss:
Discuss. -
kitty...... =D>
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Ok, here's my take on the picture of the kitty flying out of the boat: it's a whole lot more interesting than discussing this tired Patagonia shit. Speaking of cats - they scare me. Because they stare so much and are so aloof compared with dogs.
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