SPLIT from Muggings: Public High Schools
Douglass, (as well as anyone else that wants to chime in) do whites in Manhattan (or any other borough other than SI) send their kids to public schools past elementary school? I know that the Brooklyn model among whites has been to get into the PS 321 district (or whatever the other hot school of the moment is) and then send your kids to private school for junior high and high school and I thought that this was basically true citywide even on the upper east and westside. Am I mistaken in this? I know that the most exclusive HS programs (Stuyvesant, Bx Sci, Tech, Music & Art) all have large white populations but are there any neighborhood junior high or high schools that are more than 50% white in the city? I ask because I hear so many PS parent talk about how they are making the sacrifice because it is a great place to raise a family and send their kids to school but I get the impression that the liberal "public school for all" thing basically ends when the kid becomes 11 or 12 anyway. It just seems that this is a big selling point, but that the reality is that the kids end up go to some pretty exclusive schools anyway, even among the most left-leaning of folks.
Comments
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homeowner wrote: Douglass, (as well as anyone else that wants to chime in) do whites in Manhattan (or any other borough other than SI) send their kids to public schools past elementary school? I know that the Brooklyn model among whites has been to get into the PS 321 district (or whatever the other hot school of the moment is) and then send your kids to private school for junior high and high school and I thought that this was basically true citywide even on the upper east and westside. Am I mistaken in this? I know that the most exclusive HS programs (Stuyvesant, Bx Sci, Tech, Music & Art) all have large white populations but are there any neighborhood junior high or high schools that are more than 50% white in the city? I ask because I hear so many PS parent talk about how they are making the sacrifice because it is a great place to raise a family and send their kids to school but I get the impression that the liberal "public school for all" thing basically ends when the kid becomes 11 or 12 anyway. It just seems that this is a big selling point, but that the reality is that the kids end up go to some pretty exclusive schools anyway, even among the most left-leaning of folks.
Ok, so this is the most absurd post I've read here in a long time. What ON EARTH makes you think that the average white family can afford to send their kids to private schools? -
Homeowner, I just realized that you were joking in the last post, right? I've taught in a couple high schools - one in PS and one in Manhattan, both high schools were majority white.....
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No, I wasn't joking. Its a serious question. I don't know any folks with high school aged kids and the impression I get is that public schools in NYC are pretty much majority minority schools after 6th grade. Its been discussed on this board a number of times, but I want to ask people who may actually have some experience in this area. Most of my friends are childless or have elementary aged kids.
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Homeowner, think about it. A parent/parents can't automatically afford to pay for private schools just because they just happen to have been born white. I'm sure that white families who can afford it do indeed send their kids to private schools. But all whites aren't in a financial position to afford private schools, especially if they have several children.
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I'm not saying that they can automatically afford to. That's why there are things like scholarships, grants etc. Last time I checked those were not solely the province of minorities. If you want to send your child to a private school, you're going to figure out a way to pay for it. Not every private school is $25k per year. There are quite a few that are affordable even for folks that are in the lowest economic bracket. And every school has some sort of financial aid program.
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homeowner wrote: I'm not saying that they can automatically afford to. That's why there are things like scholarships, grants etc. Last time I checked those were not solely the province of minorities. If you want to send your child to a private school, you're going to figure out a way to pay for it. Not every private school is $25k per year. There are quite a few that are affordable even for folks that are in the lowest economic bracket. And every school has some sort of financial aid program.
That's great to hear. I didn't know private schools offered so many scholarships. If private schools are really that easy to access for all I guess private school is not really an exclusive thing at all anymore. -
Subject: schools and such
I think he was only joking. At least I hope so.
I'm interested in this conflicting perception of NYC whites and their school choices. I do know that pretty much everyone I see at the parks in Park Slope claim they'll find private offerings for their children at 6th grade. Though many intend only to do this for two or three years, in the hopes that the kid will test into a good high school after that.
Still, NOBODY around this neighborhood seems to intend for their children to attend our Park Slope high school, John Jay.
As for me, I always thought of 9th street as somewhat center slope, but the cops and real estate people don't. Center Slope is supposed to be between Union and 4th or 5th. -
Well I went looking for the actual school education info for NYC high schools. There is a report of the class of 2005 graduates broken down by race for each school region. Looks like there are a only select number of schools that have majority white populations in Manhattan. All of them are schools that have a screening process for admission which means they probably draw kids from a broader geographic area.
Interestingly, there is far greater population of whites at Brooklyn schools and the Brooklyn schools tend to be zoned schools that are open to the entire neighborhood. These schools have some limited screening programs (honors or performing arts type programs) but those are smaller components of the school. The school with the largest number of white students in the class of 2005 was Tottenville High in SI with 776 followed by James Madison in Brooklyn with 540. There were also about 80 schools that didn't report any whites at all in the class of 2005.
Also interesting is that the two schools that are currently in the old John Jay building on 7th Ave (Secondary School for Law and Scondary School for Research) had a combined number of 14 whites in the class of 2005.
When looked at on a borough by borough basis, it appears that the greatest utilization of the public high school system by whites occurs in SI followed by Brooklyn and Queens. Manhattan is 4th and the Bronx has the lowest overall utilization with the bulk of the population attending just 3 schools. The one piece of information that this report doesn't include is to total number of high school aged children in the city, but it does give a good indication of who goes where.
http://schools.nyc.gov/daa/reports/excel/Appendix%20D%20Types%20of%20Diplomas%20by%20Ethnicity.xls -
Somebody here mentioned that there are projects full of whites in Staten Island. I doubt those guys are sending their kids to private school.
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Subject: Re: schools and such
Clearly you move in more rarefied circles than I, because I know plenty of local parents who hope their kids will make it into MS 51, which is very highly regarded (and hard to get into). You're right about John Jay, though, but -- as maybe you already know -- after elementary school you are no longer automatically assigned a school by the zone you live in anyway.rushkoff wrote: I think he was only joking. At least I hope so.
I'm interested in this conflicting perception of NYC whites and their school choices. I do know that pretty much everyone I see at the parks in Park Slope claim they'll find private offerings for their children at 6th grade. Though many intend only to do this for two or three years, in the hopes that the kid will test into a good high school after that.
Still, NOBODY around this neighborhood seems to intend for their children to attend our Park Slope high school, John Jay.
As for me, I always thought of 9th street as somewhat center slope, but the cops and real estate people don't. Center Slope is supposed to be between Union and 4th or 5th. -
Subject: Re: schools and such
Anonymous wrote: Clearly you move in more rarefied circles than I, because I know plenty of local parents who hope their kids will make it into MS 51, which is very highly regarded (and hard to get into). You're right about John Jay, though, but -- as maybe you already know -- after elementary school you are no longer automatically assigned a school by the zone you live in anyway.
Seriously. Of course Park Slope kids go to public middle schools. How could the private schools possibly have room for every kid coming out of 321? I don't know percentages, but all the decent local public middle schools have their share of middle class (including white) children. Lots of people in Park Slope used to send their kids out of district because the local middle schools were not so good, but that has changed.
Also, you are correct -- there is no zoned high school for Park Slope. Kids can apply to almost any high school in the city. Those schools they put in the John Jay building (John Jay itself closed a few years ago) don't seem to be working out very well but perhaps they will improve. Anyway, Park Slope kids go all over the city for high school. There are lots of them at Midwood and Murrow high schools, and they're all over Manhattan -- at Beacon, Bard, Millennium, Stuyvesant, and a dozen or more other Manhattan high schools. -
homeowner, thanks for doing that research
I've occasionally wondered about John Jay
Here's what Inside Schools has to say about them
H.S. 460 John Jay High School
237 Seventh Avenue BROOKLYN, NY 11215
At a Glance :
Grade levels: 11 to 12
Class size: 34
Ethnicity %: 5 W 41 B 47 H 9 A
Attendance: 55%
Graduation rate: 37.3%
7-year graduation rate: 49.2%
College admissions: poor
What's special: Prime location in Park Slope.
Downside: Chaotic atmosphere; one of the worst drop-out rates in the city.
http://insideschools.org/ -
John Jay High School is closed. They stopped admitting new students and when their last class graduated, that was the end. I'm pretty sure that the last senior class left there some time ago. There are three small schools in the building now that have grades 6-12. The idea was to give local parents more options, including a high school in the neighborhood, but it hasn't worked out that way. There was a lot of disorganization and staff turnover in the beginning, and some people who had taken a chance on the new schools were unhappy and pulled their kids out. The Board of Ed brilliantly put a suspension center in the building, which brought a population of troubled and violent kids into the building.
The kids at MS 51 are always complaining that kids from the John Jay building come down to 5th Ave to start trouble -- not sure how much truth there is in it but the 51 kids believe it. -
pitu wrote:
Dang, what a shithole!! No wonder the white parents don't want their kids going there. I doubt the Hispanic, Black and Asian enjoy having their kids there either.
Attendance: 55%
Graduation rate: 37.3%
7-year graduation rate: 49.2%
College admissions: poor -
mypasswordwontwork wrote: [quote=pitu]
Dang, what a shithole!! No wonder the white parents don't want their kids going there. I doubt the Hispanic, Black and Asian enjoy having their kids there either.
Attendance: 55%
Graduation rate: 37.3%
7-year graduation rate: 49.2%
College admissions: poor
I feel bad for John Jay - his memory deserves better. Can we rename it Franklin Pierce High? Failing that, maybe it could just be demolished. -
Drano wrote: [quote=mypasswordwontwork][quote=pitu]
Dang, what a shithole!! No wonder the white parents don't want their kids going there. I doubt the Hispanic, Black and Asian enjoy having their kids there either.
Attendance: 55%
Graduation rate: 37.3%
7-year graduation rate: 49.2%
College admissions: poor
I feel bad for John Jay - his memory deserves better. Can we rename it Franklin Pierce High? Failing that, maybe it could just be demolished.
Nahh - the building is too nice and is built far in excess of the current maximum permitted density.
Convert it to condos! -
Drano wrote: [quote=mypasswordwontwork][quote=pitu]
Dang, what a shithole!! No wonder the white parents don't want their kids going there. I doubt the Hispanic, Black and Asian enjoy having their kids there either.
Attendance: 55%
Graduation rate: 37.3%
7-year graduation rate: 49.2%
College admissions: poor
I feel bad for John Jay - his memory deserves better. Can we rename it Franklin Pierce High? Failing that, maybe it could just be demolished.
As Rose pointed out, John Jay has been broken up into 3 smaller secondary schools, like many of the messed-up mega h.s. in NYC.
Here's the early results on one of them:
the others are here:
Secondary School for Law
237 7th Avenue BROOKLYN, NY 11215
Grade levels: 6 to 12
Class size: 25
Enrollment: 595
Ethnicity %: 8 W 56 B 33 H 4 A
Attendance: 87%
Graduation rate: 66.2%
Empowerment School
Neighborhood: Park Slope
Admissions: Interview
What's special: A 6th - 12th grade program
Downside: Limited Advanced Placement courses
John Jay Secondary School for Law is one of three small schools in the building that once housed John Jay High School, a failing school that closed in 2004. With freshly-painted apple-green and sky blue hallways and a bright, renovated lunchroom, the school for law, founded in 2003, is clearly seeking to move beyond the building's troubled past and challenge students drawn from all over Brooklyn.
http://insideschools.org/fs/school_search_results.php -
I taught at Clara Barton. The students seemed really excited to be there and quite enthusiastic. According to insideschools their results are better than most high schools in the nabe
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Wildone wrote:
Better idea: convert it to a private school. That would help end the Berkeley-Carroll monopoly in Park Slope, and help put a dent in the BC-Packer-St Anns-Bk Friends oligopoly of downtown Bklyn, all of which enables $30/year tuitions (aka highway robbery) for kindergarten. Then take the money that's flushed down the toilet into John Jay and spend it instead on scholarships to attend both schools, and you'd have two great schools in the area that were affordable to the community at large.
Convert it to condos! -
John Jay High School closed in 2004.
BTW, Brooklyn Tech is not mostly white. My daughter goes there (and loves it). It is the most diverse group I have seen anywhere. -
norbal wrote: BTW, Brooklyn Tech is not mostly white. My daughter goes there (and loves it). It is the most diverse group I have seen anywhere.
Welcome to Brooklynian, norbal!
Bklyn Tech sounds great...compare these numbers to what was John Jay, or one of the three internal restructured schools listed up thread...insideschools.org wrote: H.S. 430 Brooklyn Technical High School
29 Fort Greene Place BROOKLYN, NY 11217
At a Glance:
Grade levels: 9 to 12
Class size: 34
Enrollment: 4337
Ethnicity %: 27 W 16 B 9 H 49 A
Attendance: 94%
Graduation rate: 94.7%
7-year graduation rate: 99.2%
College admissions: excellent
Region 8
Empowerment School
Neighborhood: Fort Greene
Admissions: exam
What's special: The largest and most ethnically diverse of the specialized high schools.
Downside: Not a lot of individual attention at this huge school. -
pitu wrote: [quote=norbal]BTW, Brooklyn Tech is not mostly white. My daughter goes there (and loves it). It is the most diverse group I have seen anywhere.
Welcome to Brooklynian, norbal!
Bklyn Tech sounds great...compare these numbers to what was John Jay, or one of the three internal restructured schools listed up thread...insideschools.org wrote: H.S. 430 Brooklyn Technical High School
That's a great school! If I had kids that's where I'd send them. Possibly I can send my dog there.
29 Fort Greene Place BROOKLYN, NY 11217
At a Glance:
Grade levels: 9 to 12
Class size: 34
Enrollment: 4337
Ethnicity %: 27 W 16 B 9 H 49 A
Attendance: 94%
Graduation rate: 94.7%
7-year graduation rate: 99.2%
College admissions: excellent
Region 8
Empowerment School
Neighborhood: Fort Greene
Admissions: exam
What's special: The largest and most ethnically diverse of the specialized high schools.
Downside: Not a lot of individual attention at this huge school. -
Subject: Miscreants @ Manual Training
Rose wrote: John Jay High School is closed. They stopped admitting new students and when their last class graduated, that was the end. I'm pretty sure that the last senior class left there some time ago. There are three small schools in the building now that have grades 6-12. The idea was to give local parents more options, including a high school in the neighborhood, but it hasn't worked out that way. There was a lot of disorganization and staff turnover in the beginning, and some people who had taken a chance on the new schools were unhappy and pulled their kids out. The Board of Ed brilliantly put a suspension center in the building, which brought a population of troubled and violent kids into the building.
THat building has ALWAYS had problems with its "utes". The [former] John Jay HS was built as Manual Training HS about 100 years ago. Think of it as a vocational training school for metal workers, carpenters, etc ... perfect for taking the trolley down to the Navy Yard once school years and training were completed.
The kids at MS 51 are always complaining that kids from the John Jay building come down to 5th Ave to start trouble -- not sure how much truth there is in it but the 51 kids believe it.
Too bad the good 'ol Dept of Ed is up to its old tricks, putting the miscreants at John Jay. No wonder why the bagel guys look more hassled these days, there's more graffiti and litter on the surrounding streets, and all the cops and psuedo-cops [school security] around the campus make it seem like a branch of Rikers. -
I just learned that my cousins (7 of them in New York, in total) all went to Bishop Ford High School. It's a little outside Park Slope, but is in the 11215 zip code. According to my cousin, the school is a mix of black, white and Asian and almost everyone graduates and goes on to college (4 of my cousins wound up at NYU) http://www.bishopfordhs.org/about_us.htm
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^^ Bishop Ford is a private high school that costs a nice amount of money and they don't deal with crap. I had a friend whose stepson was thrown out of there for having terrible grades and being a troublemaker.
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Drano wrote: [quote=mypasswordwontwork][quote=pitu]
Dang, what a shithole!! No wonder the white parents don't want their kids going there. I doubt the Hispanic, Black and Asian enjoy having their kids there either.
Attendance: 55%
Graduation rate: 37.3%
7-year graduation rate: 49.2%
College admissions: poor
I feel bad for John Jay - his memory deserves better. Can we rename it Franklin Pierce High? Failing that, maybe it could just be demolished.
It's a beautiful building and it has a great swimming pool in it. Wouldn't want to demolish that. But, i don't know anybody living in the area who had children attend there, people go out of their way to get their kids into other high schools either in Brooklyn or Manhattan, I don't think any Park Slope kids go there -
Bishop Ford is one of several very good (private) Catholic schools in and around the PS area. There is St. Savior which has an elementary (co-ed) and high school (girls), St. Francis Xavier, and the school on PPW just south of the 15th Street circle whose name escapes me at the moment (Holy Name??).
As far as I know all of them have been pretty popular over the years. Whether you like their politics or not, the Brooklyn Diocese has always been on the forefront of providing quality education for working and middle class folks. They've even partnered with a not for profit to open two boarding programs here in Brooklyn for kids whose home life might prevent them from either getting into or suceeding in school. -
homeowner wrote: Bishop Ford is one of several very good (private) Catholic schools in and around the PS area. There is St. Savior which has an elementary (co-ed) and high school (girls), St. Francis Xavier, and the school on PPW just south of the 15th Street circle whose name escapes me at the moment (Holy Name??).
For some reason I'd thought Bishop Ford was a public school. My uncle has 6 kids, all close in age and they all went there. I doubt they'd qualify for any scholarships. That must have cost him quite a bit then.
As far as I know all of them have been pretty popular over the years. Whether you like their politics or not, the Brooklyn Diocese has always been on the forefront of providing quality education for working and middle class folks. They've even partnered with a not for profit to open two boarding programs here in Brooklyn for kids whose home life might prevent them from either getting into or suceeding in school. -
Usually tuition for siblings decreases for additional children. If you have six kids all going at the same time, odds are high that you don't pay tuition x 6, even without scholarships.
Don't get me wrong, its not like "Come on down and the 5th kid is free", but the tuition break is a pretty standard thing. -
homeowner wrote: Usually tuition for siblings decreases for additional children. If you have six kids all going at the same time, odds are high that you don't pay tuition x 6, even without scholarships.
That's a good thing. Shame they didn't offer my uncle the same kind of deal for his kids at NYU
Don't get me wrong, its not like "Come on down and the 5th kid is free", but the tuition break is a pretty standard thing.
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