SPLIT TOPIC: Churches and Morality in Crown Heights
MOD NOTE: Split from the tree branch break thread here
Now we have just average disorganized citizens chasing after disorganized elected officials tryiing to get demoralized and under-funded state institutions to do something, despite numerous well-intended laws that make it nearly impossible.
Is this progress?
whynot_31 wrote: Here are the various possibilities we had after his arrest:Absent a system of justice based on a moral code, this is what we get. Given that morality is "out", then I would suggest that social irresponsibilty is "in". Witness the lack of response by the system to Maynard's actions. If this were the "good ol' days", some civic minded, church people would have probably have had a coalition of clergy slap Steve in a psych ward months ago.
[My opinion is shared by a well meaning, overworked, Deputy Warden who runs one of the mental health units on Rikers. To paraphrase past conversations I have had with him: "They don't give us what we need to help these guys. Why are they paying us to do this over and over without the support of OMH and community based care? What do they think my guys and a once a week psychiatrist are going to accomplish? This is stupid."]
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Now we have just average disorganized citizens chasing after disorganized elected officials tryiing to get demoralized and under-funded state institutions to do something, despite numerous well-intended laws that make it nearly impossible.
Is this progress?
Comments
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Capt. Planet wrote: Witness the lack of response by the system to Maynard's actions. If this were the "good ol' days", some civic minded, church people would have probably have had a coalition of clergy slap Steve in a psych ward months ago.
No, this is desperation and resignation.
Now we have just average disorganized citizens chasing after disorganized elected officials tryiing to get demoralized and under-funded state institutions to do something, despite numerous well-intended laws that make it nearly impossible.
Is this progress?
Sadly, I feel your depressing post underestimates the problem.
As MHA points out on the first post in this thread, he was told that Steve has been doing this for years.
Indeed, I have a vague memory of when I first saw a guy I believe was Steve: several years ago he was breaking branches while I walked my dog one night on EP. (I am not certain it was Steve given the time elapse). At the time, I saw what appeared to be a clearly mentally ill man destroying a tree, who then stopped and muttered at me as he walked away. Acting under my moral code (admittedly a jaded one based on work in the mental health field) I did nothing because I perceived him as harming no one, and not meeting the strict criteria for an EDP that would be admitted.
But here's the irony: It seems literally dozens of people felt he met the criteria for an EDP, and the police and EMTs brought him to local ERs on numerous occasions.
....it's not like this guy suddenly became mentally ill and got arrested. afterall.
As you point out, this situation did get to the level that we hadjust average disorganized citizens chasing after disorganized elected officials tryiing to get demoralized and under-funded state institutions to do something, despite numerous well-intended laws that make it nearly impossible.
But, as a leader in the above effort, I point out that this approach didn't work. Despite education, experience and a team of concerned people that I will not detail here, we were unable to get him the care he needed.
Despite their efforts, the politicians of CD8 and the police of the 77th were not powerful enough to get him into to the custody of OMH.
Although I have not worked with Mr. Maynard, I have worked with enough people in this situation to bet that HE was unable to get HIMSELF the quantity and quality of care HE needed in either outpatient or inpatient settings.
The system failed him.
The system failed his family.
The system failed us.
As a small group, we were patient.
We were organized.
...and then we were creative.
Creativity that can not be accurately described here. But I truely believe that only as a result of that creativity did he end up getting the care he needed.
Despite noble efforts to address it, the "Andrew Goldstein Problem" is alive and well. Please read the bottom of this link for an explanation
http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=622
P.S. I feel the authors overstate the potential impact of Outpatient Treatment to meet the needs of folks like Andrew Goldstein and Steve Maynard, but post it because I feel AOT is certainly a step in the right direction. -
Capt. Planet wrote: Absent a system of justice based on a moral code, this is what we get. Given that morality is "out", then I would suggest that social irresponsibilty is "in". Witness the lack of response by the system to Maynard's actions. If this were the "good ol' days", some civic minded, church people would have probably have had a coalition of clergy slap Steve in a psych ward months ago.
As whynot said, Steve is getting the help he needs now because of coordinated efforts of local concerned citizens to work within the limits of our system.
Now we have just average disorganized citizens chasing after disorganized elected officials tryiing to get demoralized and under-funded state institutions to do something, despite numerous well-intended laws that make it nearly impossible.
Is this progress?
"Church people" aren't the only answer here, and "church people" =/= morality.
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Just saw the Dawkins piece. Independent of a critique of theology, my own feeling about all of the churches in this neighborhood is based on their seeming absence in community involvement. They whoop and wail on Sundays, but Monday through Saturday, their doors tend to be closed. The ministers don't attend community meetings. They had absolutely nothing to do with complaints about Steve, nor his eventual internment. What irks me about ALL of the churches around here is how socially ILLITERATE they are. Surely, when these guys attended theological training they took a class on fostering growth in their churches. Surely they learned about fostering community involvement, right? Wrong.
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MHA wrote: Just saw the Dawkins piece. Independent of a critique of theology, my own feeling about all of the churches in this neighborhood is based on their seeming absence in community involvement. They whoop and wail on Sundays, but Monday through Saturday, their doors tend to be closed. The ministers don't attend community meetings. They had absolutely nothing to do with complaints about Steve, nor his eventual internment. What irks me about ALL of the churches around here is how socially ILLITERATE they are. Surely, when these guys attended theological training they took a class on fostering growth in their churches. Surely they learned about fostering community involvement, right? Wrong.
first of all i want to apologize if i came off as arrogant or rude. that certainly was not the motive, but i can see how that came be perceived over the internet. again, I apologize. :oops:
That leads me to some serious questions, mha: how is the church to be socially literate when in a society that claims to be tolerant continues to mock and isolate them? Is it based on preconceptions, experience, et al? How is the church to be socially literate when people who have great ideas about doing things say they wont meet face to face because they stated they wont "breach the boundary between flesh and avatar"?
Bro, I'm saying lets work this out and get it in, on something serious. it may be slow, it could even get worse before it gets better, but im saying lets go get it my friend. -
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about HCH. I am referring simply to the churches in the neighborhood. There social relevance is shrinking. It seems like anyone with a tambourine and a loud voice can open up a church. I see absolutely no community involvement by any of the churches in this neighborhood. What that has to do with who I am, flesh and bone, escapes me. Your need to know who I am also escapes me. This has already been covered ad nauseum. It ain't gonna happen, 'bro'.
Jesus Christ could come from the sky and proclaim himself, but it's not going to stop these brothers from bussin' shots...And on cue someone is bussin' shots in the neighborhood as I write this... Wow. I heard 5... These brothers are at the end of their rope, spiritually and materially. These churches have access to more capital than I can imagine, and they fail to use it productively. I can't stand the whole lot of them. Christianity has ruined the African, in this hemisphere as well as on the continent. It's a religion used to make the African passive, and it worked. But I digress. That has nothing to do with trees, or Steve -- which NO church had anything to do with by the way. -
Jesus Christ could come from the sky and proclaim himself, but it's not going to stop these brothers from bussin' shots..
in a way you are right man. even when Jesus comes back people will be shaking their fist at him. I just want to say this man.
1. You have a legitimate frustration with what is happening in the streets [clarification]. You do. But from what I've heard some of the solid churches dont even have enough members or money to fix their own buildings to help care for the community. 1 church had their building burned down. They had been doing some very good things. Now they are gonna be on the street worshiping until 2011. And some churches are STILL doing food pantries. im friends with the presbyterian church on the corner of nostrand & dean, so holla at me if you want to get some inroads. if not, go visit and share your heart.
2. The pastors aren't even supposed to be the ones at the community board meetings if I'm correct. it wouldnt hurt, but from what ive learned they are supposed to be praying for and shepherding their flock. Deacons biblically were the ones who went out to care for the widows, etc and community. Some churches have designated people to be there. At the very least, there are people who are parishioners who are at the community board meeting, i know that 100%. they are concerned. the pastors are concerned.
3. I know there's been 57 + shootings (thought I heard one last night, a whole bunch of sirens close to my block) MHA I listen to your ideas because they are good about community development. And we've been putting our money and time where our mouth is too.
Have a great Saturday fam.... -
my wife reminded me also of pastor ken bogan whom ive met. he works at the kingston ave mediation center. he also is very active with save our streets. in fact. two other pastors came down to be a part of the last save our streets event. come out to the next one if u want to talk to him. i think the next one is wednesday at 6 or 630pm. itll be posted im sure. stuff is being done fam
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I'm sorry but I'm convinced after years of watching the Methodist church become more and more irrelevant and self-absorbed, that main stream denominations simply have become part of the problem. They're taking good space talking about that happened 2,000 years ago as if nothing has happened since then. Find me a reference to climate change in the Bible and I'll shut up.
If you want to hear something more relevant, come to the talk on Permaculture at Imani Garden today at 4 pm. 87 Scchenevtady at Dean Street -
A reference to climate change?
Wasn't there something about rain for 40 days and 40 nights endangering all life on earth?
And me a nonbeliever! -
Hey don't get me wrong, Jesus was hardly a conformist. But don't tell your pastor. It's a big secret.
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i'll say this. there are no perfect churches. If that was case, we would not proclaim that we need Jesus. right? and I think that was the disconnect with our other dialogue. To God, a master's degree means nothing if it's not for His glory. I'm weak. Barack Obama at least recognizes that he's weak. Bill McKibben, weak. I pray that by the Holy Spirit you will or maybe you have recognized that you are weak. Limited. Not to discredit intelligence. But I believe its all given by God. So, at least on here, because this is a community forum, not an apologetics forum, im not going to debate over climate changes and eschatology. That's misplaced. You call the Methodist Church on the carpet. Last time I checked, they've set up and financed large hospitals in every
major city in America. You can't fault them there. Am I right? (srs qst?)
All I'm asking is to consider the positive. The church is concerned. And if taking into consideration what you or MHA have to say makes a conformist, so be it. We believe that the greatest need we all have is Jesus, God-man, who provides reconciliation with a just, sovereign and loving God. I pray that you will read this in love. I look forward to meeting you in the future. Hope to see you at the Basil Meet-Up
BACK TO THE TOPIC! we saw a tree branch broken while we were walking down St Johns headed towards Washington Ave on a fairly new planted tree. :O buttttttt... it was quite possibly a machine.
Pausing for a Long Break:
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My response to this is almost like a catechism: 325 A.D., Council of Nicene; stop believing in fairy tales. They once had a purpose, but now we are living in the 21st century and the only thing that can save us are the aliens.
Steve saw DEMONS in the nooks of tree branches, and not one of these right reverends blessed any of the trees. -
That depends on whether you consider Peter Venkman a Reverend....
I consider him to be at least a Saint.
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MHA wrote: My response to this is almost like a catechism: 325 A.D., Council of Nicene; stop believing in fairy tales. They once had a purpose, but now we are living in the 21st century and the only thing that can save us are the aliens.
If you believe that, you might as well kiss your sweet petutie good-bye.
Steve saw DEMONS in the nooks of tree branches, and not one of these right reverends blessed any of the trees.
Consider the possbility that we might actually change our behavior?!?!?!
What would that look like? How would it happen? In a latte bar, an Ethiopian restaurant, at Launchpad? Would there be a psychic shift brought about a ciritical level of new mass consciousness. Being alive now is such fun, don't you agree, MHA. -
Wait, I don't get what you're saying. Are you implying that MHA should kiss his sweet petutie goodbye because he "believes" in the extremely fateful Council of Nicene, organized by then Emperor Constantine on order to stop the warring factions within the Church? Believe what, that it happened?
Cause, you know, it kinda did. -
I'm with Ntfool here. I have no idea what you're talking about Capt. Planet.
Maybe you're referring to what I said about Steve; it's possible I mis-phrased. I should have said 'Steve BELIEVES he saw demons in the nooks of tree branches...'
But if you want to continue the theological debate, here we go. I will take it one further: I don't CARE if God exists or not.
Let's say he does exist, let's say he created the universe, his son died on the cross, yada yada yada; let's say for YOUR sake ALL of that is FACT. Where in all of that should my WORSHIP or LOVE follow? How SICK is it that an all powerful being wants ME to WORSHIP it? Why need I placate the ego of a god??? Seriously. Why would you want to be around anyone or anything like that?
It sounds to me that the story (or fact) of your god evinces the ego of a SOCIOPATH, and history has proven that to be the case. All gods are sociopaths. When I hear people say give god the glory, I say, "I ain't givin' god shit. So believe in your fairy tales, if it makes you feel better. One could argue I believe in my own ( I am a layperson UFO-ologist), but despite all of the power I ascribe to aliens from other planets, I am not bestowing worship or love upon them just because they have that power.
And here is my point to you. The worship of God is akin to the slave's worship of the SLAVEMASTER, who seeks the gratitude of his captives for THEIR captivity. He does this because of his GUILTY CONSCIENCE about the level of brutality he has subjected them to.
I think it was Milton who wrote of a protagonist that he would rather live on his feet in Hell than on his knees in heaven. I agree wholeheartedly.
And here's the epilogue: It's a philosophical question. If I only have a hundred dollars to my name and I lend you ten, and a millionaire has a hundred million dollars to his name and he also lends you ten, whose endeavor is of more value, mine or the millionaire's? Similarly, Jesus, the son of GOD died on the cross, purportedly for the sins of man. Also, Spartacus, Malcolm X , and Martin Luther King --- all mortal men -- died for no lesser reasons. I would rather WORSHIP them, and bestow my love unto THEM and people like them than your god, or his son, who has more lives than Super Mario. Jesus knew that he was going to 'die', but he had so much 'spiritual bling' he could afford to do so with barely a ho-hum.
What irks me to no end is that the churches in this community do absolutely nothing for the physical betterment of it. My Sundays are constantly polluted with the voices of people and the clamor of musical instruments, ''...givin' god da glory -- hallelujah!'' and when they are all sweaty and leave exhausted they walk by litter and squalor and do absolutely nothing about it. I have no room or tolerance for people who pay no property taxes, extort money from the poor, and call themselves righteous. -
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That's too small for me to see, unfortunately.
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MHA wrote: That's too small for me to see, unfortunately.
I added a link now. The site won't let me post it any larger because it would break the margins. -
Hah! Seen! Wow! Funny!
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Obviously the council of Nicene happened, producing the Nicean Creed, and the Holy Trinity, among other politically inspired documents.
My petutie reference was about being saved by aliens, a far more sketchy proposition. -
This is totally ripe for a poll:
Who will ultimately save and/or destroy us?
a. The holy trinity
b. Aliens
c. I have no idea
to vote, go here:
http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=710354#710354 -
MHA, whatever beef you may have with the church, which seems to be a big one, it's the current absence of any organizing moral principle that I am decrying, not the absence of the Christian church per se.
It's easy to pick apart the ruins of the Christ movement, but do you have any suggestions with what to replace it? As the world rapidly rots around us, it seems you'd rather spend your time dancing on the grave of Christ than coming up with an alternative.
As I said before, I don't see a quest for the perfect tiramisu as a worthy purpose in life. In the end, I feel it is only ethics that have a ghost of a chance of saving our sorry asses from climate change, the collapse of biodiversity, etc.
If this isn't real for you, because the dead dolphins aren't flopping on your front porch, and the dying polar bears aren't rolling over in your backyard and the dead coral reefs are turning up in your fish soup at the corner bistro, then I would put you in the same league as the great masses who don't respond to calamity until it's way too late.
Only a gifted few have the ability to forsee the future and have the courage and resources to act while they still can make a difference.
It seemed like you might be one of them. Perhaps I was wrong. -
You know, I will defer from one of my pith-filled opinions. Not up to it these days.
There are many capable people who can speak to your response above. There was a wonderful Dawkins excerpt that someone inserted earlier; I suggest you loop that and watch it. -
Sorry to hear you have other priorities. Dawkins is going nowhere, just down, with the rest of us.
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Capt. Planet, are you suggesting that MHA should find another religion to replace the "Christ movement", or that he find another, non-religion-based ethical system?
If the former, why would we need a religion to develop an "organizing moral principle"? Why is it necessary to believe in a Supreme Being in order to live a moral and ethical life?
Why must humans continue to act as primitive tribes (called "Jews", "Christians", "Muslims" etc.) and to war against the other tribes?
I believe that religion generally has a negative affect on human society; it separates us and breeds fear, anger and contempt of persons who follow other religions. I think we'd all be much better off without it. -
Would you say Buddihism or Jainism or The Society of Friends have a negative effect on people?
Where if not in a religious context do we discuss issues of morality and ethics? Without regular attendance at moral events, my sense is that humans behave badly. It is only moral principles that prevent the worst in human nature from expressing itself. The current climate of immorality has expressed itself in some most heinous crimes imaginable. The probable loss of the human species is the most flagrant example.
I wonder what Dawkins would advocate? -
booklaw wrote: Capt. Planet, are you suggesting that MHA should find another religion to replace the "Christ movement", or that he find another, non-religion-based ethical system?
Couldn't say it better myself.
If the former, why would we need a religion to develop an "organizing moral principle"? Why is it necessary to believe in a Supreme Being in order to live a moral and ethical life?
Why must humans continue to act as primitive tribes (called "Jews", "Christians", "Muslims" etc.) and to war against the other tribes?
I believe that religion generally has a negative affect on human society; it separates us and breeds fear, anger and contempt of persons who follow other religions. I think we'd all be much better off without it.
@Planet- Why do we need to replace religion with anything? Do we not have (for the most part) an innate sense of right and wrong that is further cultivated by good parenting, good teachers, society as a whole (as opposed to fragmented), etc.?
And why do you speak as though we're on the verge of apocalypse and we're all "going down" with Dawkins? -
booklaw wrote: Why must humans continue to act as primitive tribes (called "Jews", "Christians", "Muslims" etc.) and to war against the other tribes?
But isn't this a function of human nature and not religion? Its not like there weren't tribes or wars in isolated societies where everyone had the same beliefs. Religion is just another reason for us to hate, not the only reason we hate.
I believe that religion generally has a negative affect on human society; it separates us and breeds fear, anger and contempt of persons who follow other religions. I think we'd all be much better off without it. -
I have to admit that is true... people hate others over their color, their sexual preference, their socioeconomic status... but you don't see wars starting over those issues.
Consider the Sunni versus the Shia in Iraq, the Christians versus the Muslims in the Crusades, and of course the "Aryans" versus the Jews in Germany and Eastern Europe.
The only other factor I can think of that has similar power is, literally, tribes... such as the Hutu versus the Tutsi in Africa.
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