SPLIT TOPIC: Churches and Morality in Crown Heights
Comments
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Capt. Planet wrote: Would you say Buddihism or Jainism or The Society of Friends have a negative effect on people?
Interesting that the most vocally religious segment of our society (the religious right) is also the most in denial about climate change (or maybe they just don't care because they're look forward to the "end times"). I think Dawkins made it quite clear what he would advocate in the video I posted above.
Where if not in a religious context do we discuss issues of morality and ethics? Without regular attendance at moral events, my sense is that humans behave badly. It is only moral principles that prevent the worst in human nature from expressing itself. The current climate of immorality has expressed itself in some most heinous crimes imaginable. The probable loss of the human species is the most flagrant example.
I wonder what Dawkins would advocate?
A relevant link regarding morality in Christian mythology:
http://i.imgur.com/PTpOj.jpg -
I was once on a train and heard a very muscular man collecting money for the United Homeless Organization. At the end of his pitch he talked about how Jesus Christ, his lord and savior, rescued him from a life of mugging, robbery, and crack addiction. This dude was easliy 6 feet 2 inches tall, 240 pounds. I looked him up and down and said to myself, 'Jesus H. Christ, thank Gawd for Jesus!' If HE needs Jesus to keep him on the straight and narrow, then let him pray until his head hurts. Me, I don't need Jesus to forestall raping, robbery, and crack use. I think that human beings can use the law and rational thought to determine what is ethical behavior, and what is socially productive behavior. EVERY moral tenet of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and Islam, and EVERY religion you can think of can be found in earlier cultures that PRECEDED those religion's existence. This doesn't necessarily mean that those religions borrowed from other cultures and civilizations -- though in many cases such is the case, but it infers that humanity does not need the word of any god to determine what is right and what is wrong. Jesus didn't come down from the sky and write the Constitution of the United States, which, I contend, is one of the most sacred documents every created.
If Captain Planet needs the concept of an all powerful god that will punish him/her if he does wrong, then let him have it. God forbid we prove to him there is no god, and he runs up and down Franklin Avenue robbing, raping, and killing.
What an incredible ahistorical irony to be living in the United States of America, a nation whose laws were founded by individuals who for the most part valued rational thought, and who saw the wisdom of limiting religious influence in the law; to live in this country and see that people like Captain Planet believe that only the church has an authority on morality. Is it me or is that truly a HUGE contradiction?? -
MHA, you are entirely correct. The only minor caveat I would add is where you say, "If Captain Planet needs the concept of an all powerful god that will punish him/her if he does wrong, then let him have it."
I would add the following to that, "(unless, of course, that all powerful god defines 'wrong' as 'living in harmony with people who believe in other all powerful gods, or in no gods at all')." -
agreed. In the latter situation, one should create a different god.
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Agreed....
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Aliens won!
http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=59844
They got twice as many votes as "I don't know".
The Holy Trinity gone none! -
So we don't have to worry about going to Hell...
just anal probes (oy!)... -
booklaw wrote: So we don't have to worry about going to Hell...
On the Simpson's, Homer was about to be abducted and dropped his pants in preparation ....they told him they had learned everything they had needed through prior research on other abductees.
just anal probes (oy!)...
....so I'm not worried about the anal probes. -
In response, I give you Newton Minnow:
But when television is bad, nothing is worse. I invite you each of you to sit down in front of your television set when your station goes on the air and stay there for a day... Keep your eyes glued to that set until the station signs off. I can assure you that what you will observe is a vast wasteland.
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Making your way in the world today takes everything you've got.
Taking a break from all your worries, sure would help a lot.
Wouldn't you like to get away?
Sometimes you want to go
Where everybody knows your name,
and they're always glad you came.
You wanna be where you can see,
our troubles are all the same
You wanna be where everybody knows
Your name.
You make recognize these words from the TV show Cheers. Many of us fantasize about a place "where everybody knows your name".
Sadly, most bars are more interested in your money than your inner life, the same can be said of most prostitutes, for that matter.
When it comes to real community, I think you need to look elsewhere. One obvious place is a church. A church can be come a real community. It does require however, unlike a bar or a prostitute, certain sacrifices, other than just money, though that may be required too. It requires giving up some of your freedom, your range of opportunities, realizing that certain behaviors are off-limits. I believe that only through sacrifice of freedom can we obtain real commitment and connection. Those of you who are married or in a commited relationship have some idea of what I speak.
Freedom is in my opinion, just an illusion, as in Kristofferson's classic line "Freedom is just having nothing left to lose".
If we agree to sacrifice some of our freedom for the betterment of the community, wonderful things can happen.
Last week I was walking down Park Place near the Franklin Shuttle when I heard this sustained blast of a car horn. I looked down on the street below and saw one car following another just inches from its bumper with the owner laying on the horn continuously.
To me, that car owner's childish temper tantrum is a classic case of someone refusing to give up their freedom to create a better community. My almost being run over on Carlton Avenue last week by a motorist running a red light is another example.
As Prof. Dawkins waxes philosophical about a "rational discourse on ethics", our expectation of what constitutes civil behavior is just getting lower and lower.
Does it take fear of an all powerful Creator to prevent chaos in society. Historically I would argue, such was the case.
If that's no longer true, how do we create an alternative? To do nothing is just a cop out, like relying aliens or having some fantasy that a rational discourse on ethics will somehow just happen of its own accord. -
OSJ....
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OSJ Opera San Jose (San Jose, California)
OSJ Office of Supervisory Jurisdiction (SEC)
OSJ Order of St. John of Jerusalem (Knights of Malta)
OSJ Orchestra of St John's (London, UK)
OSJ Oblates of St. Joseph (religious order)
OSJ Ocean Science Journal (Korea)
OSJ Open Stub J-Pole (amateur radio antenna)
OSJ Order of the Knights Hospitaller of St. John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes, and Malta
????????? -
No,
Oh Sweet Jesus, someone (besides Steve) needs thorazine and a straight jacket
and,
Oh Sweet Jesus look at this judgmental holier than thou screed. -
MHA, I am truly impressed... I had no idea you had a sense of humor!
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Damn, now you did it MHA. You hurt my feelings. I guess I'll have to abandon my post to the gutter snipers and self-appointed cognizantees.
Lurkers, here's your chance to join the fray. Gird up your loins and jump into these snark-infested waters. You've got nothing to lose but your self-respect and common sense.
Enjoy. I'm out of here.
PS. Don't bet on it
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So CP, do I understand correctly that you are arguing not in religion as a source of "morality" but as a useful means of social control? If so, you have a point.
However a rational discourse on ethics happening on its own accord leading to changes in morality that conflict with traditional Abrahamic "morality" is something that has already occurred. Dawkins provided several examples of this (belief in women's equality and rights, belief that slavery is wrong, belief that people shouldn't be killed for apostasy). Many of the current battles going on today, such as the battle to end discrimination against homosexuals in our society, continue this process of rational discourse on ethics trumping traditional Abrahamic "morality." This is hardly a "cop out." -
CP said -- "...gird up your loins..."?
OSJ
CP - I'm a 'gutter sniper' because I am critical of fairy tales??! You've got to be kidding. For those not in the know, being called a 'gutter sniper' is akin to be called filthy human being. I think the etymology is British, so I am thinking CP is British, or from the Eastern Caribbean -- likely Barbados. IF CP is from Barbados then it makes sense that s/he and I would have protracted conflict. I am from an isle genetically predisposed to absolutely loathe Eastern Caribbean people. That being said, what an irony that CP thinks that to engage in DISCOURSE with said gutter-snipes like me would lead to a loss in self-respect and COMMON SENSE; wow.
Ad hominem never works bub. Rational discourse always prevails. As I said, '325AD, Council of Nicene' look it up. -
booklaw wrote: And why do you speak as though we're on the verge of apocalypse and we're all "going down" with Dawkins?
From our favorite paper of record, the NY Times:
Scientists warn that unless more is done quickly to protect species, extinctions will spike and the intricately interconnected natural world will be damaged with devastating consequences.
Read more at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/19/world/asia/19tokyo.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=biodiversity&st=cse -
Carnivore wrote: So CP, do I understand correctly that you are arguing not in religion as a source of "morality" but as a useful means of social control? If so, you have a point.
A church meeting is a regularly occuring event that provides a forum for reflection on ethics and morality.
However a rational discourse on ethics happening on its own accord leading to changes in morality that conflict with traditional Abrahamic "morality" is something that has already occurred. Dawkins provided several examples of this (belief in women's equality and rights, belief that slavery is wrong, belief that people shouldn't be killed for apostasy). Many of the current battles going on today, such as the battle to end discrimination against homosexuals in our society, continue this process of rational discourse on ethics trumping traditional Abrahamic "morality." This is hardly a "cop out."
If the church is dead or dying, where do we get a recurring opporunity to disucss these matters?
Is it this forum?
OMG!!! -
MHA wrote: CP said -- "...gird up your loins..."?
You might consider actually responding to my observations, rather than labelling them a "holier than thou screed".
OSJ
CP - I'm a 'gutter sniper' because I am critical of fairy tales??! You've got to be kidding. For those not in the know, being called a 'gutter sniper' is akin to be called filthy human being. I think the etymology is British, so I am thinking CP is British, or from the Eastern Caribbean -- likely Barbados. IF CP is from Barbados then it makes sense that s/he and I would have protracted conflict. I am from an isle genetically predisposed to absolutely loathe Eastern Caribbean people. That being said, what an irony that CP thinks that to engage in DISCOURSE with said gutter-snipes like me would lead to a loss in self-respect and COMMON SENSE; wow.
Ad hominem never works bub. Rational discourse always prevails. As I said, '325AD, Council of Nicene' look it up.
Carnivore seemed to rise to the occasion. How about MHA? -
MHA rises to all of the occasions.
You seem to poo-poo the idea that ideas about what's right and wrong can be discussed on this forum. I disagree with you of course. The absolutism you seem so wedded to, seems best chipped away in such a forum as this where NOBODY knows your name (to allude to your Cheers reference), and where there can be a give and take without the hallelujahs, the thrashing, the tambourines, without the rawed-throat screams, and the discordant noise of 'worship' and prostrations.
You don't raise the notion that if more people were to turn to THEIR spiritual beliefs that would aid the world, but that if they turn to YOUR spiritual belief, it will. Implicit in such a perspective is an arrogance that has always been in Christianity, and ironically, while you claim it's the key to our salvation, it has been for quite some time the cause of most of the world's pain.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Steve Maynard, the young man who saw demons sitting on tree limbs -
MHA-
I think the Capt is ok with me disclosing that several people on this forum know his real name. He does not hide.
....I say that as a fellow moral atheist. One whom played a role in hopefully getting Mr. Maynard into a better spot. -
And?
What does knowing Cap's real name have to do with anything?
What's a 'moral atheist'? Heck, what's an immoral atheist? Or an amoral atheist? Atheists come in flavors now? Any country and western atheists out there? -
To me the term "moral atheist" suggests someone who lives by a moral code, in spite of (or because of) his lack of religious belief.
I would like to think the term applies to me as well. -
We ALL live by a moral code. It's called 'The Law'. There is the NY Penal Code, which is available online, there's the U.S. Constitution -- also available online. Neither one of them requires worship, or interpretation from some other language. They are both written in English.
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Well, MHA, you allege that this is a forum wherein no one knows each other's names.
As I have before, I am pointing out that you are incorrect.
You also seem to allege that Capt is somehow forcing his beliefs on others, or judging them to be inferior to his. I have yet to pick up this vibe from his writing.
To me, he seems to say when it comes to church, "you take the good with bad". I.E In exchange for listening to someone try to instill religion in him, he gets the benefit of a community which he feels is very positive to his well being, and makes him think.
As someone who is not religious, and doesn't believe there is a god, I clearly don't feel the need to make such a tradeoff. .....but you should not infer that I think less of those who do.
It's getting close to lunch time, so here's a food analogy:
Religions and churches are like restaurants, all serving different flavors.
Many of us have a consistent preference (i.e. a religion), but we all must eat. I have rarely met anyone who is able to eat the same thing their entire life.
Even though I am an atheist and believe man invented religion (aka "god as he is known by a given culture"), who am I to tell someone that they should not go to church/temple/mosque?
...In fact, I often think the opposite. Usually I am just psyched that people (in this case, Capt Planet) have found someplace to get their needs met.
Yes, as Booklaw points out, my use of the terms "moral atheist" comes from the vibe on this thread that someone needs an outside force to make them moral. With regard to myself, I don't feel the need for any such outside force.
With regard to others, I'm willing to watch people try out whatever religions, yoga positions, and therapies available until their needs are met.
[exploitive cults would be an obvious exception]
If I ever feel the gaul to judge religious people, I hope it'll be when I'm at the end of my life. ....only then will I be confident enough to state that I won't someday need to participate in religion in order to feel a sense of self and purpose.
I believe the saying is "fake it until you make it". ....and I think we are all faking it. -
OSJ
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MHA wrote: OSJ
You are free to worship him if you want.
He's the spanish guy who sweeps the floor at my office. -
Dude, can't we keep the peace? Must you start up with me again? Seriously. Can't you just chill out?
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I'm talking about religion, god, and morality.
Above, you said you'd rise to the occasion.MHA rises to all of the occasions.
Howdy, Stranger!
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