OMG Not another 99 cent store!!

Krowonhill: at first, you questioned the validity of the data. Now you treat it like gospel to use it to support your pretty obvious stance on the larger issues. You know what the people of nostrand want. No one else does.

If I may presume (and I admit it is presumptuous) to read between the lines of Krowonhill's posts, interpreting them in the light of her comments in other threads, I would guess that she is motivated by admirable compassion for those neighborhood residents who clearly could not afford to partake of the expanded offerings of a gentrifying area, and whose very ability to continue living in that neighborhood might well be threatened as gentrification causes rents to rise.

Let there be no mistake... gentrification is a zero-sum game: what benefits the gentry is damaging, and sometimes disastrous, for the less advantaged residents.

While some residents might well be thrilled to have more dining, drinking and shopping options, it would in fact be in the better interests of other, less well to do residents, to add yet another 99 cent store.

My Thesis: I believe that NostrandPark is co-opting the needs/desires of lower-income neighbors in order to push her own middle-class agenda on the neighborhood.

Note: I *believe* in her agenda. The Nostrand Ave. community would benefit from the presence of middle-class people, because they would bring social, financial, and political capital to a neighborhood that sorely needs it. I believe that the most healthy communities are socioeconomically mixed.

So, bring on some bars and restaurants for newly-arrived or visiting middle-class people while continuing to support the dollar stores where lower-class people already shop. But please don't tell me that you're bringing in the bars and restaurants for the patronage of lower-class folks, especially when you are simultaneously telling me that these outlets will manage to "sivilize"* them. That's disingenuous and condescending.

*i.e., "civilize" per Huck Finn

I for one, personally, do no think Nostrand Ave has been or is yet being co-opted by anyone's agendas, except some neglectful, greedy landlords of the commercial spaces on the Ave.

The rents per square foot on Nostrand Ave are still higher than Franklin Ave - though I don't think this will be true in the next 2 - 3 yrs - yet the actually spaces on Nostrand Ave. do not seem to be adequately maintained by the landlords to command such prices.

(This is based on my informal conversations with the merchants on both Franklin and Nostrand Ave about their leases, informal browsing through Craig's List and calling the Realtor's offering spaces on both Ave's for lease)

The landlords on Nostrand Ave - who seem to operate out of a short-sighted, neglectful greed based train of thought - do not seem to do much screening on the quality of the business's they lease to and they do even less to maintain the quality of their properties.

Again, this is all based on my informal conversations with various business's on both Ave's.

What seems to end up happening on Nostrand ave. is, many Mom and Pop entrepreneurs with the desire to run a business - but with a weak or no business plan - open up shop without being fully prepared financially or practically.., and then end up closing.

The landlord's on Nostrand Ave., who choose to operate like this, keep up this disastrous rental cycle up of leasing their sub-par spaces to sub par business's with shaky financial standing - yet the landlord's keep asking for rates per square footage that keep increasing - while their conditions of their properties steadily decrease.

So, what kind of business's would want to or more importantly choose to lease in that atmosphere?

In my opinion, the kind of business's that already dominates Nostrand Ave. - sub par business's with short-sighted goals/business plans (making next's month's rent & barely covering operating expenses).

I think the resident's, who shop on Nostrand Ave., do desire better than another .99 cents store selling sub-par goods.

I have nothing against moderately priced stores selling inexpensive goods of some sort of QUALITY. Quality here is the key word for me.

There is much middle ground between "another sub par .99 cents store" and a lovely Art Gallery or Wine Bar or high end vegetarian restaurant or a snowboard shop - that I for one and not ashamed to admit that I would be thrilled to have on Nostrand Ave. as they absolutely serve my personal needs.

These "middle ground" types of business's - diverse, reasonably priced goods of quality - are what is sorely lacking from Nostrand Ave.

I see a lot, but certainly not all, of this as a result of the landlord's on Nostrand Ave who choose[u] to operate in this neglectful & greedy manner.

Charging top dollar for spaces in deplorable conditions which only attract inexperienced entrepreneurs or sub-par business's on the shakiest of financial ground.

Hopefully, this will soon change on Nostrand Ave., but right now, I see it as an unfortunate cycle that needs to be addressed.

There needs to be more quality business's on Nostrand Ave. Quality does not have to mean high priced, high end exclusive goods.., just NOT sub-par, cheap goods

Is it too much to ask stores to sell fresh food or goods that are not expired or defective in some way?

There is nothing wrong with a $3.00 - substitute moderately priced - hamburger or turkey burger made from QUALITY meat.

But there are many things wrong with cheap, sub-par goods and a shopping district flooded with business's that primarily sell these kinds of goods.

@Mr Met - FYI - the $10 cover charge was an unfortunate typo on the part of whoever designed the flier. This is and will be a free event!

I went with a few friends - one's a professional singer - and we had a blast listening to the 4 piece band!

The drinks seemed reasonable - I'm not a drinker so am not overall familiar with prices - maybe $6.00 for wine and/or $7 for a mixed drink.

The design of the place is more like a sports bar than Jazz lounge, but I enjoyed the music so much!!!!!

@Mr Met - FYI - the $10 cover charge was an unfortunate typo on the part of whoever designed the flier. This is and will be a free event!

I went with a few friends - one's a professional singer - and we had a blast listening to the 4 piece band!

The drinks seemed reasonable - I'm not a drinker so am not overall familiar with prices - maybe $6.00 for wine and/or $7 for a mixed drink.

The design of the place is more like a sports bar than Jazz lounge, but I enjoyed the music so much!!!!!

cool. guess you saw that part of my post before i deleted it.

nostrandpark wrote: Secondly, I will keep my personal life personal, but suffice it to say that my personal and professional life are heavily connected to lower-income communities of color. You read can a person's blog and still never know the person behind it.

mr met wrote: assumptions are easier, i guess.

Although they are easy to make, they do get annoying. I mean, why should nostrandpark have to tell others she doesn't want her opinions to be ascribed to her on the basis of attributes that others assign?

Likewise, why should Mr Met, myself or anyone else be to told we hold points of view as a result of what social class we belong to, how much money we earn, or how long we have been in the neighborhood?

....assumptions like that are silly. In addition to revealing the "assumers" biases about how members of groups should think, they are often made with very limited information, so they often guess the demographics wrong.

I find it hard to respect the opinions of posters who engage in such laziness. While we shouldn't go overboard and question the intent and meaning of every word, this board remains an intelligent place to kill time having conversations because it's members consistently confront patterns of such posts.

SnowboardQueen and Nostrand Park,

As someone who isn't into commercial real estate, your recent posts are making my head have what are likely to be seen as "some pretty rookie type thoughts".

The idea that the avenue is owned by an assortment of landlords used to providing "low quality, undeveloped spaces" to unsophisticated entry level businesses intrigues me.

It sounds remarkably similar to a market I am familiar with: The market faced by new renters.

The dynamics seem very similar in that the renters pay what I consider to be high prices for poorly maintained units. ....like you describe, the price per square foot between the units are counter intuitively similar (or even higher priced) than nicer properties located in nicer neighborhoods.

The reasons residential tenants have to settle for such crappy, expensive spaces arrangements are well documented, and it is not my goal to repeat them all here.

In no particular order, I'd like to get away with summing up "the factors that keep these tenants in the less desirable neighborhoods and spaces" as up as a combination of:

a. Not being savvy enough to shop around

b. Not having the solid references (track record) that the landlords in the nicer communities require.

c. Discrimination based on race, religion, etc.

d. Discrimination based on type of income (for example Section 8 vs salary)

[there's entire graduate school classes taught on this stuff, I don't feel like repeating what is documented elsewhere]

Returning to the commercial market, I can't help but see the similarities, and agree that that Crown's Heights Nostrand Avenue strip of seems to be stuck in a self-fulfilling prophesy:

The owners don't realize the potential of the avenue, so they don't invest in it.

This then causes renters who CAN overcome the factors very similar to a - d, to quickly leave the 'hood for greener pastures.



As you describe in your posts, this process causes the properties to constantly turn over and makes the entire commercial strip not reach its potential.

We all seem to agree that it only takes a few businesses and landlords to "up their game" in order to have the market to force the others to follow suit. Besides attracting businesses that offer services and products beyond what the avenue is currently known for (i.e. caribbean food, nail salons, dollar stores), are there any efforts to look upstream?

For example, has outreach been done to real estate agents that handle commercial sales?

These professionals could market commercial properties for sale in a way that would attract landlords aware of the site's full array of business uses.

In a perfect world, these new landlords would then improve the properties to the degree that they could attract the savvy business operators the community desires and deserves.

Afterall, there's no reason anyone on the avenue should have to tolerate nasty food, rude service, or dirty, decrepit storefronts.

Lest readers think that I am relying on assumptions or stereotypes (or indulging in some character assassination to satisfy my own ego needs), I will say one more time that I am relying on evidence for my thesis. I'm not making this up out of thin air. Instead, I looked at:

1) the NYC Dept of Small Business Services data that NostrandPark presents, easily available from her blog for anyone else to review too

2) NostrandPark's own statements, i.e.:

"Let’s talk about the fact that low-income residents are only ever exposed to inferior foods, goods, and services based on someone else’s stereotypes about what they “deserve” or “want”. Let’s talk about how that informs their value system. Let’s talk about how perhaps introducing other options to the hood could have a positive effect on the residents."

As I said before, I think NostrandPark is doing good work, and I admire her for doing it. Taking on the role of a community advocate is hard. But when someone takes on the role of speaking for the community, we as community members have to hold them up to a high standard. The community deserves that.

mr. met, NostrandPark is involved in many actions on behalf of the community besides just bringing bars and restaurants to Nostrand Ave. But I believe (even if some don't) that bringing bars and restaurants to Nostrand Ave will benefit its lower income residents, albeit in an indirect way. And I know that NostrandPark is aware of these secondary benefits as well, even though her focus in this thread has not been that.

NostrandPark and people like her, working together with our community, can be a powerful force for change. I applaud her (over & over again).

As far as my own motivations, my personality type (Myers Briggs) is that of an "Idealist". For better or worse, I am strongly attached to my values and am aggressive in defending them when they are violated. And I believe that the experiences/hearts/minds, etc. of poor people are often misrepresented in our society, even by people of privilege who are truly good hearted and seek to help them. I have a unique perspective on this because I grew up (desperately) poor, but am now primarily surrounded by middle-class people who trust me as one of them.

But I find myself wondering what your motivations are? You spend your time following me (and MHA) around on the Brooklynian ripping into my posts with outright hostility using character assassination to harrass and harangue me. I get the impression that you think that I am the devil incarnate.

Can we lose the "I have a unique perspective", persecution/savior language and continue to talk about Nostrand Avenue?

As I read NP's quote:

"Let’s talk about the fact that low-income residents are only ever exposed to inferior foods, goods, and services based on someone else’s stereotypes about what they “deserve” or “want”. Let’s talk about how that informs their value system. Let’s talk about how perhaps introducing other options to the hood could have a positive effect on the residents."

I infer that she is tired of seeing the culture of poverty that is represented (and perhaps created by) violence, Tobacco, 40 oz Malt Liquor, Bling Jewelry, Junk food, and being unable to plan a better future for yourself.

Aren't we all against these things?

Instead of devolving this thread into silly "I speak for the people of the neighborhood and you don't" nonsense, let's have this thread go places....

Let's talk about keeping money in the 'hood, and not exporting those jobs.

Let's talk about attracting businesses that meet the communities unmet needs and desires.

Let's talk about building the struggling retail sector, and having a business strip that will attract powerful people to the neighborhood.

As Krowonhill states, we will need lots of people, with lots of talents to improve the neighborhood. That isn't going to happen if we create an environment in which people leave as soon they become successful because their is nothing to keep them there.

Ultimately, afterall, the residents of the neighborhood will speak for themselves. Business that aren't liked will go under. Let's get a variety of businesses to take the risk and see which ones survive.

mr met's an internet troll, don't mind him

oh please

whynot good post, I think the question of what the catalyst has to be for Nostrand to "step up its game" comes down to how real the client base for said businesses on Nostrand is.

Not to mention, while there is generally what ppl on this forum regards as "crap", there's also a lot of good stuff

- Key Food on BKA and Fulton is excellent; IMO the best grocery store I've had access to since moving out of my parent's place ~4 yrs ago. Big, clean, cheap, good variety

- Fish monger on Nostrand and Fulton

- Natural food store on Nostrand and Atlantic

As far as a "Nostrand Park" or similar types of business, I sincerely don't think there's enough of a client base to support them. Franklin would not be what it was without the Alma Realty complex pretty much wholly supporting places like Franklin Park, and the demographics continually change more and more as you go west to have strips like Washington & Vanderbilt.

Plus the fact that Nostrand is somewhat "dead" works in the favor of people who live around there- the rent is cheap, and coincidentally the good businesses there can afford to stay & provide goods at price points that work for the people in the area.

Like someone said in another thread- "Nostrand is not Franklin, let Nostrand be Nostrand" or something to that effect. For those with the means to travel west quickly, Nostrand/NYA/BKA can be a gold mine.

CTK,

I agree and disagree.

As a result of walking my dog everywhere in my free time, I agree that Nostrand has some definite assets (such as those you list).

However, I disagree with you that there are not huge opportunities for businesses to make money on Nostrand. Given the neighborhood's demographics, replicating a beer garden that benefits from 4 huge buildings of college educated people largely in their 20 and 30s strikes me as a bad idea.

In fact, once the pizza place and thai place opens, the businessman in me runs out of new money making business ideas for Franklin.

....which leads me to look at Nostrand, the next avenue with lots of foot traffic and a busy subway!

I see the busy strip and lots of middle class "cubicle people" and health care workers hauling home merchandise and food in bags after they get off work.

I want to stop them and say: "What is in there? Would you have bought that locally if it were here?

I want to find out why Crow Hill Bistro (one of Nostrand Ave's recent "middle class" sit down places) went under, and what they would do differently if they were to do it again. I want to know who they were able to engage, and who they were not.

I want to buy a vacant or under performing building from someone who does not see the area's potential, renovate it for a bargain while the construction market is depressed, and then rent it out.

I want to hang out at the thriving Super Wings and ask them what they would open if they had the capital to open another establishment, and why. Because their bajillion customers have decided to eat something "new" for the neighborhood, I want to ask them what else they want. ...whenever I am in there, I see a mom buying takeout for her family. What local businesses would her 'tween and teenage kids like?

Given their enthusiasm for the new sushi place on Nostrand, I want to ask the readers of Brownstoner, what else they would like: http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2011/01/sushi_opens_on.php#comments

I certainly don't want to compete in the world of steam table food or dollar stores, to me that market seems saturated. I want to find something that someone (perhaps not me) could earn a solid living from owning and operating.

I hope to go to the jazz -sports bar sometime soon, have a beer and get a sense of who else is around me.

....man, I would love to get out of the "cubicle life" and own a business, or work part time because I had somehow pulled together enough to become a landlord.

I hope there are others like me.

I hope they are beyond the dream stage.

Homeowner-

Yes, I still see several storefronts that continue to meet your description.

...and that is a good link. While much of it still rings true to me, I perceive some progress as having been made.

I'd have to learn more before I become optimistic enough to believe that we could achieve some of the existing drug depots to consolidate. (I don't consider elimination to be realistic).

In my dual quest to improve the 'hood and make some money, I'd take local crime levels into account, and make informed decisions about whether their interests are best served by accessing and deciding which of the local "powers that be" should be kissed up to, whether they be the drug dealers, large scale landlords (Mr Dave and Mr Jeff?), or the at times "irrelevant" 77th pct.

Perhaps a food service place that serves traditional American food and does not need to be open really late, like a nice diner? .....I'd ask the owners of that diner on the other side of EP (the name might be Sunshine...) how Nostrand Ave was treating them.

It should be interesting to watch the Italian place that will soon open next to the Sports Jazz place.

....both seem similar to my latest whim.

I had good cause to walk on Nostrand between Fulton and Eastern Parkway twice in two days. Nostrand has EVERYTHING! The irony is I could not find a 99 cent store! I am sure they exist, but, where are the countless numbers of them griped about? What does seem wrong about the businesses seems to me to be out of the control of the proprietors, and more the responsibility of the landlords. There seems to me to be little maintenance to property, and, if you ask me, that's a perennial issue when it comes to 'certain' people living or doing business and others indifferent to the quality of life of 'certain' people...

There are so many businesses on Nostrand! The area is teeming with people, car traffic and the sounds of commerce.

Here is an irony for you: When the dude with the pawnshop started his business, I was the first to mention my own issue with it, and to that came tremendous blowback about capitalism and the good ol' American way. Here I am saying quite the opposite: 'What of the good ol' American way?' And some of the social planners are responding as if there should be some sort of cultural code which ought to dictate what sort of business should exist in a specific area, because those who live in that area with a median income of 'x' want it -- as if that somehow ought to dictate some dude's desire to sell Poland Spring for 99 cents?! Whaddup wit' dat? And to that social-planner -poster -- who has cleverly branded his/her neighborhood with a sexy moniker and icon (and no doubt trademarked it to boot) -- tells me to check myself (before I wreck 'mha-self', presumably). Ah well. It's weird, when I am in midtown and I walk down Restaurant Row, I don't hear people bemoaning the plethora of restaurants; or when I am in Chinatown, I don't see anyone bemoaning the presence of vendors selling the same stuff, the same food, or when I am in Little Italy, no one says, there's too much pizza here, but whenever Black people sell the same thing, whenever you get 3 hairdressers on the same block, or 4 places selling roti, or curry goat, everybody has a problem with it, and hipsters want to say we need a Syd's sandwich shop; that we need 'variety'. Well, ain't Das Kapital supposed to Da-termine every-thang??? Wassup wit dat?

Check yo-self indeed....