OMG Not another 99 cent store!!
Comments
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OK I finally took a long look at the numbers and some things just seem a little weird.
OK.
City-Data.com lists the following data for these two key zip codes:
11216 (EP & Nostrand)
Population density: 59371/sq mi
Population age distribution:
Median individual income: $27,152
Median household income: $33,373
Annual Income in 0.5 mi radius: $1.3 billion11238 (Vandy etc)
Population density: 43504/sq mi
Population age distribution:
Median individual income: $42,133
Median household income: $53,619
Annual Income in 0.5 mi radius: $1.4 billionNow while the amt of money in these areas are the same, the way its distributed is much different. What do those numbers say?
- First obvious thing is obviously households + individuals on the west have more disposable $$$ to spend than those on the east.
- This is compounded by the facts that individuals seem to make more in the west than the east, AND the fact that people in the east have more kids
So what's the conclusion?
I think from a $/sq mi POV, the two areas look the same, but as I said before the amount of real disposable income in the east is nowhere near what it is in the west. The idea that the residents around Nostrand have all this $$$$ waiting to be spent doesn't make sense to me. How'd they come up with those #'s Nostrand Park? Where are the residents of 11216 gonna find another $200 million to support the revitalization of the area?
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The IRONY is that MHA led the campaign against steve, the tree destroyer, who is mentally I'll, and now it is being suggested that MHA needs psycoactive medication.
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Hahaha, "in that sense, you were right"
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I think it's wrong to attack NostrandPark's intentions; she's done more to try to help CH than pretty much anyone in this thread- more specifically her detractors.
But I question the value of more retail in an area of such low levels of income and wealth. People of 11216 just don't have the income to spend
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CTK wrote: I think from a $/sq mi POV, the two areas look the same, but as I said before the amount of real disposable income in the east is nowhere near what it is in the west. The idea that the residents around Nostrand have all this $$$$ waiting to be spent doesn't make sense to me.
CTK, I think everyone agrees with you re: your reading of the neighborhood not being as well off as some.
I think that we are stating that the west got new businesses first because it had (as you put it) "$$$$".
As opposed to four $, Nostrand might have only $$$, but the demand seems to be there for a greater variety of businesses.
....in the past it only had $$.
....meanwhile, poor East New York continues to have only $.
(still with me?)
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Ctk: what do you make of the survey results in which residents indicate that they want new businesses?
And no one wants to turn the neighborhood into Vanderbilt or necessarily make it more "upscale." it's a matter of variety.
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That being said, is it possible to be civil here? Am I going to have to start responding to people who claim I'm insane? I mean, seriously. That's a little below the belt, no?
Does Nostrand Park's data dictate that private enterprise ought to be policed by what a certain class of people want? Or does my presupposed insanity diminish this point?
If there goods and services that people want, nothing stops them from taking opportunities into their own hands and opening a business. Hey, it's the American way. So if a couple of immigrants want to open yet another 99 cent store, then I say more power to them...
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MHA are you familiar with the fields of Marketing and Advertising?
...they are central to the functioning of modern capitalism.
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Yeah, obviously I am, but, please, what's the point here? Is that the point that Nostrand Park is making? That marketing and advertising are to be employed to ATTRACT business? Sorry, (seriously) I missed that aspect of their thread. I don't recall reading that; not to say it wasn't there. But I did not see it. I will endeavor to look again.
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C The Kid,
You state that:
OK I finally took a long look at the numbers and some things just seem a little weird.
OK.
City-Data.com lists the following data for these two key zip codes:
11216 (EP & Nostrand)& 11238(Vandy etc)
Dude, this entire thread is based on a post from Nostrand Park that clearly references a different source of data than city-data.com - the data source - you choose to reference in your post above.
As you stated, you've just had a chance to become familiar with this particular topic. Perhaps in your rush to come up to speed, you mistakenly did not access the data source from the NP post that is being referenced.
After you have a chance to actually look over the actual data that LaurelB references in her NP post, then perhaps it would be best to begin formulating questions.
Until that happens, you guys are not even on the same page to begin an intelligent, rational discussion with the primary goal of clarifying, enlightening and/or going in deeper on the issues at hand.
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I think if Nostrand were an isolated strip in the middle of nowhere, there would be a much bigger case for its revitalization. But with Atlantic Center, Target, Fulton, Franklin Ave, Washington Ave, Vanderbilt Ave all within decent PT distance, I don't know.
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No one wants to police storefronts. You are inventing things to argue against.
You ask for civility, but you call nostrand park a liar and question her motives. You also indirectly call people racists in just about every post.
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MHA-
I was not obvious to me that you were familiar with the fields of marketing and advertising, but I am glad you are.Yes, using and refining your current knowledge of these fields will help you understand what is necessary to bring a greater diversity of businesses to Nostrand.
Yes, reading this thread again will help refine that knowledge as well.
(I think we are finally making progress!)
CTK-
As we discussed earlier, the strip is already becoming more diverse despite being close to the entities you mention.Do you remember my hamburger analogy from earlier? ....and the fact we we were looking for ketchup? [although I'm biased because I wrote it, I thought it was brilliant]
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SnowboardQueen, relax.
The data I referenced for EP/Nostrand from 11216 is not far off from the 11215 data. If anything, the 11215 data listed in the report only further reinfornces my point about the lack of disposable income in the area as it shows LOWER amounts of income.
Is there a place for DIFFERENT business on Nostrand? Yes. But there's a difference between DIFFERENT business, and MORE business- specifically more to the tune of $200 million more annually in a .5 mile radius of a very low income area. I see what a lot of people are saying and agree to a degree, but I don't think what is listed in the report is truly valid to what Nostrand "needs".
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CTK-
What would you (as a small business owner) put on Nostrand?
...you could put it in one of the sites presently available for lease, as to not displace any existing business. You could gear it toward the present residents, as to not offend people who think the neighborhood is "mostly fine as it is". This strategy also allows you to take as few financial as risks possible.
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C The kid,
11215 is my old zip code in Park Slope. Is this a typo of some sort? Are we not referencing Crown Heights?
You have every right to have your personal opinion on what the numbers in any report represent.
but I don't think what is listed in the report is truly valid to what Nostrand "needs".
But for the sake of clarity and a coherent discussion- if you are going to question the validity of data in a report - at least reference the correct report at hand, that this discussion is being built upon.
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MHA,
Please stop your hypocritical, contradictory, cry-me-a-river hyperbole.
That being said, is it possible to be civil here? Am I going to have to start responding to people who claim I'm insane? I mean, seriously. That's a little below the belt, no?
It's quite obvious your belt knows no limits and that you have no idea what the word civil means.
All one has to do is read your post on page 3 of this thread.
Your unbridled racist commentary - that you cowardly try to pass of as good ole' college boy humor - exposes you for exactly who and what you are.
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SnowboardQ-
There will always be people who say that others are doing their job wrong.After politely answering their questions and explaining patiently why we are doing what we are doing, the best move may be to let them know they "can do the work and differently if they want", and then get back to work. MHA and Krowonhill may warrant this technique.
I take a different perspective on CTK's concerns. While it is important to know the opportunities present in CH vis a vis other neighborhoods, I think arguing over the EXACT AMOUNT of unmet demand is kinda silly and time consuming. All data will be slightly different, but so far it all supports our central thesis:
Nostrand Ave has unmet demands as a result of the area's current residents.
Starting from there, the question becomes: "What kinds of businesses stand the most chance of successon Nostrand Ave ....especially in light of the "market environment" constraints raised by Mrs. Whynot?"
....as I pointed out recently, "making money" can expected to be their first and primary reason for coming. However, if we could also attract a business with laudable social goals, that would also be excellent.
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whynot_31 - good points made! And..,
Starting from there, the question becomes: "What kinds of businesses stand the most chance of successon Nostrand Ave ....especially in light of the "market environment" constraints raised by Mrs. Whynot?"
That is the Million dollar question for Nostrand Ave at this point in time. A question that will not be easily or quickly answered.., but hopefully truly addressed.
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That being said, is it possible to be civil here? Am I going to have to start responding to people who claim I'm insane? I mean, seriously. That's a little below the belt, no?
Yes, please let the civility begin now - now that MHA has had the opportunity to state or otherwise imply that I am a boojee, xenophobic, uninformed liar.
OK I finally took a long look at the numbers and some things just seem a little weird. OK. City-Data.com lists the following data for these two key zip codes:
You will forgive me if I choose to rely on information supplied by a renowned retail consultant company, which is based on data generated by a retail market analysis company that has been around for four decades rather than rely on your haphazard analysis from city-data which, among other flaws, omits zip codes 11213 and 11225. I’m just boojee like that.
I’m not quite sure if I understand the point of your comparative analysis – the west could have 100 times more disposable income than the east, but that does not negate the fact that there is unmet demand in the east that is generated within the east. In fact, within the quarter mile radius (which is centered at Nostrand and Eastern Parkway, and roughly extends from Bedford to Brooklyn and Park to Crown), the data from JGSC/ESRI demonstrates that same exact pattern of unmet demand exists as when you look at the broader radii [sorry, I cannot scan it now, but will try to tomorrow].
I understand that the information that I am providing may be disconcerting because it upends your entrenched stereotypes about the neighborhood and its residents. It's probably more comforting to question all of the various sources that I cited, and continue to cobble together your own questionable data into a story that reaffirms your personal perceptions about the neighborhood, rather than accept that maybe you got it wrong.
Next time around, though, rather than challenge the clear and convincing data, it may be more rewarding and productive to challenge your own stereotypes. Just a thought ...
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Haters gonna hate
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Sorry I was away from this discussion for a little bit while I got lunch.
MHA-
As you can see from these pictures, I view Syd's (the sandwich place you rail against as being typical of the 'hoods new bourgeois tastes) as a yummy, affordable lunch option. You may have to have a good monitor to get a good view of my receipt, but is says I got a 6 inch steak sandwich and a diet coke for you only $5.89! Every time I have a chance to go, (I think I've now been 4 times), the place is yummy.Hopefully we have all eaten and are ready to focus on the task at hand.
Davidb convinced me that google street view was not going to cut it, and he is indeed correct: Metro PCS kicked CFC's sorry ass to the curb several months ago.
I will readily admit that my time in the hood consists of mostly walking my dog and not focused on the fantasy I am presently engaged in. Today's well timed holiday allowed me to some more homework to feed my fantasy.
Between EP to Atlantic, I saw the following places clearly for rent or vacant:
comment: to large for me. I looks like it is already be renovated.
I like it!
I like it! ...this is the property davidB mentioned in his post.
comment: this looks like the entire building is for sale. too big.There may be additional places that are vacant, but this was difficult to discern in light of the MLK holiday. Several storefronts were closed in order to observe it.
....meanwhile, just beyond Atlantic, the bookstore at 539 Nostrand was open and doing an expectedly good business of selling civil rights books, on what may be their busiest day each year.
---fear not, my hopefully constructive and successful business idea for Nostrand is almost ready!
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HAPPY MARTIN LUTHER KING DAY, MHA. YOUR'E A RACIST! (According to NostrandPark & the Brooklynian entourage anyway, if not the Oxford English Dictionary*.) What a shit show.
"While King was having a dream, the rest of us Negroes are having a nightmare." - Malcolm X
*"Racism is a belief or ideology that all members of each racial group possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group or racial groups."
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I am pleased to disclose what direction I am currently headed in!
I took the following things into consideration:
a. today's quick survey of what the neighborhood hasb. Nostrandpark's info on what the 'hood wants
c. my own perception of the neighborhood
d. Mrs. Whynot's input
e. What I think I would be good at, which takes into account my prior experience in the food service industry (readers may not know that my first good job was driving a catering truck)
f. a fictional 200k to invest
Based on these things, here's my decision tree.
I will not pursue opening:
a clothing store
a liquor store
a food store that sells carib food
a dollar/variety store
a check cashing place
a beauty store
a furniture store
a Pawn ShopI will pursue:
.
.
.
.
wait for it
.
.
.
.
drum roll please
.
.
.a mid-range food place!
Preliminary information:
....it will close by 9 PM each night, and it will not offer delivery.
....it will not have table service
....it will not have an alcohol licenseI believe I will be able to provide a more specific description to this distinguished panel by this evening, but preliminary comments are welcome now.
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whynot_31 - if you choose to open a business that serves food, would you please consider some health conscious meat dishes? As in baked vs. fried, low sodium, preferably boneless - I really like center breast cuts.
And crisp, steamed vegetable dishes are always a plus in my book!
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SQ-
So far my business fulfills many of your requests.Rest assured, I want your business!
....I might not get you to eat with me everyday, but I hope that you give me some of your money at least once a week. More input is welcome as I develop my business...
Krow?
MHA?
CTK?
NostrandPark?
DavidB?
lurker?I will finish my plan by 6 PM, I promise!
(don't worry, the plan will be less than 200 words ...it is just not finished formulating in my head yet) -
Another informal and totally anecdotal data point that sometimes comes from looking down (as in on the ground) rather than up in the sky...there are a surplus of Indian food delivery menus now being distributed (and ruefully discarded) along the doorways of the Avenue. It surely is just a matter of time until an enterprising Indian restauranteur opens an establishment along the Avenue...or in a close tie, it could be a dedicated Mexican restaurant. They must be tracking where their delivery guys are going by bike, and someone is going to figure it out that the first one into the pool makes the biggest splash!...and WhyNot, while I like your idea, I think delivery is too big of a revenue opportunity to rule out. Look even SuperWings does delivery. A lot of the demand is from foot traffic, but it also comes from all of the residences along the cross streets - and in times such as these (frigid cold days), everyone welcomes the delivery guy! But I do like the direction that you were headed in... now head to kickstarter for the seed capital!
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Another business idea, low on capital , but long on service (and again anecdotally supported) - is a mailbox/postal services/shipping establishment. Doesn't have to be a UPS store (but ever notices the amount of brown vans clogging the streets btw 4 - 7 pm in the CHN hood?) because they require a lot of upfront capital, but again a lower priced entry point franchise operation (like a Mailboxes Etc) I think would find a wonderful demand for its services - and plenty of small-ish storefronts available for such an endeavor are along the avenue.
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Is kickstarter where Syd got his start up $? ....I remember reading he won it as a result of type of competition. Nostrandpark, surely you know this.....
Yes, I go to Lincoln Postal on Lincoln and Classon because the post offices are so gross, so poorly located, and have such bad hours. ...but this is not the direction I am headed in.
I might do delivery ....we will see.
Davidb or SnowboardQ-
Do either of you have photoshop? If so, can I get you to photoshop my store's name above one of the above storefronts? I've already named it, and will PM it to you.....when the magic moment for the reveal arrives, I'll then post your photo in all its glory and owe you thanks.
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I LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE Delivery.., but I do understand the added insurance costs that might not make delivery attractive for a new business.
As a transplanted Manhattanite (my original drop off point when I moved to the big, bad city), I will admit I hate to wait - I don't care how friendly or attractive your staff is.
So, with that in mind, if you will not offer delivery, please nurture efficient take out service for those who called in and pay over the phone. As in, I call in my order, give you my credit cards #, and you tell me when it will be ready.., and it's actually ready then or within a reasonable time frame.
Busy Bee's don't have time to cook, so we are willing to consistently pay for a nutritious, satisfying health conscious meal on the regular.
Howdy, Stranger!
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